help on field recording please

T

teupaksa

Active member
i am going to do some field recording in the forest soon with my canon xha1.

i have no soundman. i am the only operator. i have a sennheizer mkh 416 mounted on the camera. i think it works well, but it is very directional.

SO, i have a xlr-in left on the camera. first i was thinking to use an external recorder to record the sounds coming from around. but then i have a considerable sync job to do in post.

this is where the xlr comes in. i want to mount another microphone on the camera. what kind of microphone do you recommend? i was thinking that an omni or bi directional mic would be a good idea... what do you think? any ideas?

maybe this one:
http://www.dv247.com/invt/20995/

mounted vertically on the xha1...

any tips would be very appreciated...
by the way, light weight is important too...

teupaksa
 
teupaksa said:
i am going to do some field recording in the forest soon with my canon xha1.

i have no soundman. i am the only operator. i have a sennheizer mkh 416 mounted on the camera. i think it works well, but it is very directional.

SO, i have a xlr-in left on the camera. first i was thinking to use an external recorder to record the sounds coming from around. but then i have a considerable sync job to do in post.

this is where the xlr comes in. i want to mount another microphone on the camera. what kind of microphone do you recommend? i was thinking that an omni or bi directional mic would be a good idea... what do you think? any ideas?

maybe this one:
http://www.dv247.com/invt/20995/

mounted vertically on the xha1...

any tips would be very appreciated...
by the way, light weight is important too...

teupaksa
Click to expand...

Would work like a charm if the "sounds coming from around" you want to record include your breathing, the sounds of the zoom and focus motors, the tape transport, and your fingers on the controls. Get the mic well away from the camera on a stand of some sort. BTW, sync is only a major problem if the sound clearly accompanies an on-camera event. No one will ever know if the sound of a bird singing in the distance or an unseen Bigfoot stomping through the underbrush actually occured a few frames either side of where it's heard in the film or for that matter whether it was even recorded on the same day. For general ambience, you wouldn't even need to roll tape if you used an external recorder. Heck, you wouldn't need to take your camera out of the case, or even bring it with you. Nothing wrong with recording general ambo as wild sound without picture and that's often the preferred approach anyway.
 
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well...

i was thinking that if i am filming someone who is talking and another person from the side mix into the conversation... then this guy on the side will be much lower...
i just want to find a way to achieve best possible soundmaterial for post.
as with the camerahandling it will be a problem since i am the only operator, i am aware of that...
i am using the external recorder to record sound that dont have to be in sync...
but i think the records would become better if i supplemented the sennheizer mic.
so basically i wondered if someone had some helpful comments on this..
 
teupaksa said:
well...

i was thinking that if i am filming someone who is talking and another person from the side mix into the conversation... then this guy on the side will be much lower...
i just want to find a way to achieve best possible soundmaterial for post.
as with the camerahandling it will be a problem since i am the only operator, i am aware of that...
i am using the external recorder to record sound that dont have to be in sync...
but i think the records would become better if i supplemented the sennheizer mic.
so basically i wondered if someone had some helpful comments on this..
Click to expand...

My opinion is that you're looking the wrong direction here, for several reasons. You said you wanted to gather surrounding sounds, not speech from an off-camera person. Now it sounds like you want to record dialog from a character on-camera and a second character off-camera - that's a whole different ball-game. You are absolutely correct that two mics will be needed, but a shotgun and an omni or figure-8 don't seem to me to be the way to go.

First of all, the shotgun for the on-camera person is not likely going to give you good results for that part of the picture. Even shotguns such as the excellent MKH416 need to be within about 3 feet or so of the subject to give the clearest results. Unless you're shooting up his nose, the camera is going to just be too far away. Since you won't have a boom operator to get it closer, this might be the place to consider putting a lav on the character, wired if you can manage it, wireless otherwise, especially if it's a walk-and-talk. Same thing for the off-camera character - unless he's shoulder to shoulder with you at the camera he's going to simply be too far away from the mic to record good results. Put a lav on him as well.
 
lav is not an option.

but you are saying i wont get good results with sennheiser? hmmm, too bad...
actually i havent tested it that much, just bought it...

well, what would you suggest if lav is not an option and if i have to mount on camera.. in the situation i described..
¨
thanx
 
and by the way, sorry i didnt express myself clearly at the first place... i was thinking of random people coming in from different directions.
i am not going to shoot a planned scene. so i have to plan for many different scenarios...
so was thinking if i had the sennheiser i would keep the sound in picture quite good, and at the same time get the surrounding people with the omnidirectional mic. but, maybe i have to rethink my strategies?
 
teupaksa said:
lav is not an option.

but you are saying i wont get good results with sennheiser? hmmm, too bad...
actually i havent tested it that much, just bought it...

well, what would you suggest if lav is not an option and if i have to mount on camera.. in the situation i described..
¨
thanx
Click to expand...

teupaksa said:
and at times i will be far away from the character. maybe up to 5 metres...
Click to expand...

What would I suggest in lieu of the 416? Nothing. There is not a microphone on the planet that will do what you're asking it to. You simply cannopt violate the physical laws of acoustics. There is nohing wrong with the Sennheiser - it is a fine mic, a film and broadcast industry standard, and an excellent choice for many circumstances including outdoor dialog. But shotgun mics are not telephoto lenses for sound - they do not reach out a grab a distant sound and magnify it. If you consider "good results" to be the clear, intimate dialog that you find in mainstream theatrical films and network broadcast dramatic television, there isn't a mic made at any price that can deliver that qualityy of sound 3 to 5 metres aways from the subject in a real environment. If you had spent double the money and got a Schoeps CMIT I'd still be saying the same thing. The laws of physics says such a mic simply cannot exist. It's not so much that there is a problem with mounting the mic on the camera - though aim can be an issue there as you might need to aim the mic someplace different from where the camera is pointing - the problem is that the proper position of the microphone to capture the best quality sound will almost never be where the camera is placed to record the picture. For best dialog recording your Sennheiser and all similar shotgun mics need to be approximately 0.75 to 1.5 meter away and aimed into a circle about 25cm in diameter centred on the talent's throat. The rule of thumb is that the speaker should be able to extend their arm and easily touch the tip of the microphone without straining. The exact distance is one that lets enough ambience in to mix with the voice so it is a believable perspective matching the camera image.

You options are ...

1: Hire two boom operators with two separate kits, one to record your on camera talent, the other to cover the other characters.

2: Obtain enough wireless lav mics to mic all the talent and hide them on your characters

3: Use your camera-mounted mic to record a guide-track, hire a recording studio, and bring the talent in to loop all the dialog in the scene (or if you have the ability to playback on location while recording fresh sound, ADR the dialog in the field).

4: Some combination of the above, such as lav on your on-screen character and a sound op to cover the other people.

Essentially that pretty well covers the possibilities.
 
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thank you very much for the information Steve!

looks like it is going to more difficult than i first thought, though.

teupaksa
 
I would also recommend you consider using a field recorder for all your audio instead of having one mic going into camera. Your camera's pre-amps aren't going to be as great as a mixer's or a solid field recorder, and if all your good audio is coming from there, then you can leave your camera's built-in mic's crap audio to reference, which would make syncing a fairly simple task. This also gives you added abilities to do rough mixes and such on the fly. Just my two cents
 
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