Help needed with 4 effects shots for horror pic... please help...

S

Steve33825

Member
I'm going to film a low-budget horror pic that takes place completely in an abandoned subway station. There's a lot of alternate reality/psychological stuff involved, kinda like in "Saw" and "Cube".

There's four main effects sequences, I need to know which programs to get and how to go about filming these....

1) The victims attempt to escape the subway via tracks across the brooklyn bridge, however they come to discover that there is no brooklyn bridge there, instead it's a railroad bridge surrounded by tile on all sides and darkness below. They run into a street gang that is chasing them and a shootout occurs on the bridge between them. Two subway trains show up on both sides (it's a two-way bridge), one of the bad guys gets smacked by one of them and falls off the bridge.

2) A guy gets crushed under a collapsing underpass in the station, very indiana jones-style but bloody.

3) A train is parked on one side of a platform. Another train smashes through the wall and slams into the parked train, dragging it as it rips through the subway platform to the opposite side, killing someone in the process.

4) The train tracks/tunnel on one platform gets flooded with water, much like a canal. Underneath the water, the tracks collapse into bottomless void and rats ascend.

Which effects programs/editing software would be best for all of this? I already got my camera and accessories but this is the only thing holding me back from moving forward. I've never done this stuff before and my girlfriend and I make $30,000 a year each but I have $6000 in savings, however I'm willing to get this movie made because its my dream so I need to get it made somehow. If you could also tell me how to go about setting up these sequences and doing them the right away with the programs, that would be great too. I'd really appreciate it and I'm willing to learn this stuff.
 
Those are some pretty tall orders but definitely possible.

For the first guy getting hit I recommend green screen, add in a background then get a Maya genius to add in the train.

I'd use a combination of miniatures and CG for the two trains colliding and maybe a bit of green screen compost footage for the guy getting killed.

The guy getting squished can once again be done with several layers of composited green screen, one would be the actor falling flat, another the large piece of cement falling, and maybe a layer of dust. You can add the blood in Adobe After Effects, Video Copilot has some great blood squirts for pretty cheep.

That last one is pretty crazy sounding, I take it you're making a bizarre fantasy/horror in the vein of Pan's Labyrinth or Night Watch. It's really hard to understand what you're going for without seeing some sketches. It sounds like you could use a miniature and some CG or possibly compost footage (for the rats), but I'd really have to know more about the shot.

I hope that helped, or at least got you thinking of some effects you could use. If you need help with any of this feel free to shoot me a PM I'd love to help.
 
That's a lot of trains for a low budget movie.
If you have now budget its usually cheaper and easier to write based on what you can get a hold of. Like travis said, make some maya/max/lightwave friends because you'll need them.
 
Hollywood would probably use a combination of green screen and practical props. The latter is going to be out of your reach though. Arson is pretty dead on though. Unless you can come up with a budget, or find your work around, you might have to scratch those scenes. You might be able to get away with using some model trains and build miniature sets like they did in Temple of Doom, but it will be tough to pull off.
 
Maybe I'm just too jaded but doesn't this sound like a joke? He's got how many crashing trains, collapsing bridges, crashing walls tunnels, floods. All for $6K, well actually MUCH less since that would be the total budget and NO experience...

I think he's trying to pull your leg.
 
OK I am too jaded, I looked back and I don't think this is a joke.
So listen to the folks above. You have described a couple of million dollars (like maybe 10-20) of special FX work. You might be able to approximate some of that on your budget but it will not look good. With careful planning you might be able to pul off one big FX shot and make it look good. I would get an art director / FX person and your sound post person and sit down and figure out what one thing you can pull of and make really good. Then rework the script for your low budget version. What I would probably recommend is to do a short instead. You don't have any experience and you are very likely to hit the wall on a feature. Your short could even be an extended trailer for the feature. If you can pull that off with one really good FX shot (the fact that it looks good will be a major plus - it means you have a sense of quality) you have a much better chance of shopping the feature and you can submit to festivals and get some buzz out there. One good shot is worth a LOT MORE than a bunch of not so good shots. With only $6k figure 1/2- 1/3 for post, and don't forget to have some in there for sound. This kind of film (especially with the FX shots) is going to be sold a lot on the sound. Get someone who knows what they are doing.
 
Yeah, trains are either going to involve: really good computer models, or really good physical models - either _may_ be possible if you happen to know a wildly enthusiastic modeller (computer or physical) who'll work for nothing, otherwise will be impossible on your budget. Making _any_ movie (as opposed to a short film) with no special effects at all for $6000 will be quite difficult enough...

But that's presuming you're going for a realistic look. Have you considered something more stylised, e.g. Sin City, Mysterious Geographical Explorations of Jasper Morello, to give two examples? A stylised look always means heaps more work in post-production, but your upfront costs are much lower (e.g. your trains might just be photographs).

Personally , if I wanted to make a film with those effects for $6000, I'd make the whole film in Lego, or South Park-style animation. Seriously.
 
Interesting ideas, guys. But if worst comes to worst, do you know of any ways off the top of your head i could get around these scenes, like a way to replace them that wouldnt involve all that FX or maybe a little?
 
It's a possibility, anything involving those trains is going to be very difficult. Not impossible by any means but it will take lots of creativity, time and effort. The cement falling on the man is a bit easer.
I'd do a few re-rights and maybe leave one or two of these scenes in and pull the rest. If you gave us a general outline and where these scenes fit in we would be able to help you better.
 
Put the script away until you have some experience and a studio paying for the budget and the team of experiences professionals to pull it off.

Write a new script based on your dad's muscle car or your mom's crappy 74 Pinto
6K wont pay for food, truck rentals, and gas to shoot a feature especially one that seems this lofty.

THERE ARE NO PRIVATELY OWNED TRAINS SO YOU HAVE TO RENT THEM FROM CORPORATIONS OR GOVERNMENT WHO DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MOVIE. There are no philanthropists with private subways for you to shoot in.

Shooting miniatures properly is more expensive than shooting the real thing but go buy some model trains and shoot them at 60p it will keep you within the 6k budget and probably look a bit hokey.

If you aren't willing to settle for model trains and can't find a CGI guru, Unless you plan on hanging out by the railroad doing "favors" for railroad engineers, I doubt you are going to get trains in your film, let alone them doing all the stuff you describe.

6k will not go far at all. 6k on a real film barely covers coffee and muffins. 1k tends to get me a 12 hour day if I have an unpaid crew and not very lofty goals for the days accomplishments. So 6k would hardly get you through a few scenes. And that doesn't inlcude the expense of anything needed to go into the shot...like a rented train.

Money train cost 10s of millions to make and only had Wesley Snipes in it (he doesn't make as much as a bigger star) I'm sure the bulk of the budget went to the city of New York.
 
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Okay I believe there's some confusion here about the whole $6k thing and thats my fault. What I meant was that currently I have $6K saved up "so far", I never said that was my budget for the movie though. I was just giving you guys an idea of where I stand financially with my savings and annual income so that I can get an idea of what I could and could not possibily afford to do. It's kinda like saying "Hey guys, look I'm not a sanitation worker or doctor or engineer so I can't afford a professional to build miniature sets and model subway trains for me". However, my expenses are really low, I don't really have any bills and I'm obviously going to keep making more money next month and the month after so... Personally, I feel the film could reach up to $10-$12K at this point at time, based on what I'm seeing so far. The one thing I didnt have to pay for was the camera and accessories which my dad bought, it all came to $1500.

Also, I live in NYC and the script is in an NYC subway station. There are plenty of abandoned subway stations around here (the opening of Jacob's Ladder was filmed at the abandoned portion of Bergen Street in Brooklyn, which is still in existence). I just have to talk to the owners and perhaps present a location release form. For certain scenes I could just simply hop on the subway, find a deserted platform late at night, or simply get on the train.

Arson said:
Put the script away until you have some experience and a studio paying for the budget and the team of experiences professionals to pull it off.

Write a new script based on your dad's muscle car or your mom's crappy 74 Pinto
6K wont pay for food, truck rentals, and gas to shoot a feature especially one that seems this lofty.

THERE ARE NO PRIVATELY OWNED TRAINS SO YOU HAVE TO RENT THEM FROM CORPORATIONS OR GOVERNMENT WHO DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR MOVIE. There are no philanthropists with private subways for you to shoot in.

Shooting miniatures properly is more expensive than shooting the real thing but go buy some model trains and shoot them at 60p it will keep you within the 6k budget and probably look a bit hokey.

If you aren't willing to settle for model trains and can't find a CGI guru, Unless you plan on hanging out by the railroad doing "favors" for railroad engineers, I doubt you are going to get trains in your film, let alone them doing all the stuff you describe.

6k will not go far at all. 6k on a real film barely covers coffee and muffins. 1k tends to get me a 12 hour day if I have an unpaid crew and not very lofty goals for the days accomplishments. So 6k would hardly get you through a few scenes. And that doesn't inlcude the expense of anything needed to go into the shot...like a rented train.

Money train cost 10s of millions to make and only had Wesley Snipes in it (he doesn't make as much as a bigger star) I'm sure the bulk of the budget went to the city of New York.
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They modified a 35mm still film camera to shoot the Rail chase in Temple of Doom, proving yet again, if you have the dedication and imagination, you don't need the ginormous budget. While I doubt you have the skills to modify a camera to suit your need, you could likely find a small digital camera that would work.

Concentrate your spare time into learning how to build your own model subway system. Those little electric trains can get pricey, but you might still be able to find some deals. Also, get to know your local hobby shops, become good friends, and you might get some reference assistance.
 
Steve33825 said:
Okay I believe there's some confusion here about the whole $6k thing and thats my fault. What I meant was that currently I have $6K saved up "so far", I never said that was my budget for the movie though. I was just giving you guys an idea of where I stand financially with my savings and annual income so that I can get an idea of what I could and could not possibily afford to do. It's kinda like saying "Hey guys, look I'm not a sanitation worker or doctor or engineer so I can't afford a professional to build miniature sets and model subway trains for me". However, my expenses are really low, I don't really have any bills and I'm obviously going to keep making more money next month and the month after so... Personally, I feel the film could reach up to $10-$12K at this point at time, based on what I'm seeing so far. The one thing I didnt have to pay for was the camera and accessories which my dad bought, it all came to $1500.

Also, I live in NYC and the script is in an NYC subway station. There are plenty of abandoned subway stations around here (the opening of Jacob's Ladder was filmed at the abandoned portion of Bergen Street in Brooklyn, which is still in existence). I just have to talk to the owners and perhaps present a location release form. For certain scenes I could just simply hop on the subway, find a deserted platform late at night, or simply get on the train.
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Nothing you first described took place ON a train. They all involved careful choreography and control of a train and shot from outside the train. Most of your shots in your original post involve looking at the train doing something that it does not normally do and therefore you need control of it.

And water in your shot doing something specific sounds really expensive and not terribly easy for someone with a self budget.

Is this your first feature film? Have you done a lot of shorts? If not don't set your goals for your film higher than hollywood. It's just not very likely you will succeed (statistically as well as logically)

Someone with a ton of experience and contacts could maybe pull it off on a limited budget. But I bet someone with no experience and no contacts could burn up $1,000,000 and never get something worthwhile shot.

The city owns the subway, the city will require a permit, and insurance. So factor in those costs (permits are generally free but lock you down to a time and place)
 
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Arson,

What I meant was that I have some scenes that take place INSIDE a train, aside from what I mentioned before, nothing big though, just simple scenes with characters, that's it.

I have not done any shorts. There is one short film that I'm going to do before this one, it's also a psychological thriller and doesn't involve special effects.

I can't stick to shorts though, I don't have too many ideas for shorts unless I take some scenes from scripts I already have and film them as shorts or samples if you will.

There's not too much you can do with a short in my opinion. It's all been done already for the most part.
 
Crawl before you walk, walk before you run.

This is my last post in this thread, good luck. Post a link to the film when it's done.
 
Let's not rain on this guys parade- or film. So, my suggestion- look at some Hitchcock films- how would he do it (or would have done it)

Maybe close up guys face- close up of the train- close up wheels- close up guys face with train light flashing- then shoot a real train passing by- shoot your actor against a green screen- have him jump back then composite the 2 in aftereffects- add lots of motion blur- move the guy off screen- add lots of sound effects.

Painted Styrofoam can look like concrete- add some dust and sound

If you can find a spot to shoot real trains on a bridge- lock down the camera- then run some actors out there without getting arrested or killed- then split screen.

You don't really have to show the impact- show blood hitting the walls or tracks.

And good luck.
 
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