Help me build a computer - please!

S

Shaw

Veteran
Hey guys,

I've been looking around at buying a high end machine and have decided on a PC system as it works best for my needs and workflow at the moment. I've priced some really high end computers at alienware and dell and they're naturally quite expensive. I'm convinced I could build myself an equivalent system for significantly less. Soo.... I'm looking for help. I've never built my own system before though I've torn into my computers in the past when necessary (to install new hard drives etc).

I know roughly what hardware I need and what is good but I'm not an expert by any means so suggestions would be most welcome. Here's what I'm thinking.

(dual?) AMD FX60 processors
4 gigs of DDR PC-3200 SDRAM (can windows take full advantage of 4 gigs?)
Two 160gig internal hard drives
DVD +/-RW drive w/ lightscribe
2+TB external raid system
Dual (perhaps quad if I really decide to go nuts?) nVidia GeForce 7900 GPU
Windows XP Pro (any reason to go for 64bit since I don't think most windows programs are written to take advantage of the extra headroom?)
Dual Dell 24inch Widescreen monitors

Any reason to choose, say, an Opteron processor? Any reason to choose the Quadro 4500 over the GeForce card?

Naturally cooling a beast like this would be very difficult. Part of the reason I'm tempted to just go with the alienware PC as it has their proprietary liquid cooling system. I'd like to avoid having my computer sound like an F16 preparing to take off....

I'd also love to learn how to overclock a system like this for maximum speed (without destroying my system in the process).

EDIT: For reference I'll be using AE to do VFX work and some colorist type stuff.
 
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System sounds nice.
For colorist work, you will need a crt monitor and a card where you can output component in something other than rgb.

I like the ASUS boards for overclocking. They allow you to do it one step at a time untill it won't boot, and then you back off. You can monitor your progress with gagues to show voltage, temp, clock cycles etc...very nice on screen adjustments.
 
You definitely are on the way!

First things first.

What is your time frame?

AMD's new socket AM2 platform in just a few more weeks.

While initial performance won't be dramatically better than the current systems, the rush to "new" technology will put downward pressure on the prices of existing high performance components.

This will lead to some very nice "Sweet Spots" in the price vs performance curve.

A few quick questions:

What is your budget?

Will you be using your lightscribe to label for distribution or just archiving?

Why do you want your 2+TB raid system to be external?
 
Yeah I bought DDR2 ram specifically for a AM2 platform.....but then I needed a system 3 months ago, so I was forced to go with INTEL processors as they were the only one's that could take the ram I just bought. I would still be waiting for AM2.

I am happy with that, as my motherboard is conroe ready.
I think it's conroe (the next intel dual processor that suposed to beat AMD).
In the mean time, I am running a dual core 930 processor overclocked to 3.4 gig each. It is cheap and fast for now.
 
Overclocking is for gamers, for our work it would help too but we should be more focused on rock-solid stability.

Anyway, since you've decided to go PC, I'd suggest the following if you need one RIGHT NOW:

- AMD Athlon FX-60

- 2gb or 4gb of PC3200 DDRSDRAM, preferably high-quality Corsair or Kingston RAM and make sure not to get their cheap value-RAM options.

- ASUS A8N 32-SLI-Deluxe Motherboard

- 2x Geforce 7900-based graphics cards in SLI

- 2x Serial ATA Hard drives of your choosing, preferably 500gb 3gbps-capable ones with 16mb cache each in RAID 0 for a total of 32mb of cache. You want a lot of space even for your system drives, RAID is optional though.

- High-end Creative or M-Audio soundcard solution

- Heavy external RAID system of your choosing, could go e-SATA for the cost savings, be sure to get one using 16mb cache HDD's though or buy the rack enclosure part of it and build your own.

- Windows XP Pro, of course

- Dual Dell monitors as you've mentioned, or could go single (for now) for the sake of other things

- BTX-compatible or convertible case like the Coolermaster Stacker.

:costumed-smiley-047
Okay, now that I've gone through that setup. Let me give you some advice on the other stuff.

Opterons are the dual-processor-capable processors. To add to that, the new ones are dual-core as well, meaning that there are literally two processors on one chip. Because the Opterons can be used in dual-processor configurations, if say you had a dual-processor motherboard when using dual-core processors, you'd effectively get four processors for the price of two. Nice huh?:) If going quad, you'd get eight processors, but Windows XP wouldn't support that, it only supports two. Vista should support more when it comes out.

The Quadro cards are the better option for video and effects work, but they are mainly targetted at 3D Modeling people. Hence why they are priced at $1,000+ for one Quadro card alone. So, the cost effective way is to go with SLI using two Geforce cards versus two Quadros. Just FYI, Quadros can be SLIed as well if I'm not mistaken, but that's obviously an even more expensive investment.

WATERCOOLING IS DANGEROUS! Just need to get that clear before going on. I've destroyed quite a few good systems trying to watercool and the maintenance just isn't worth it either. Now, I know what I'm doing, but it sounds like you're just starting and that wouldn't be good to risk a system like the one you're wanting to build. The ones I went through were $1,000- $2,000 tops, this one could be REALLY expensive. But there's still hope, Koolance is a great company that makes external watercooling kits, the EXOS-line, and I've had great experiences with them based on their ease of use and ease of setup. Literally, all you do is route the tubing through a spare PCI slot and plug the tubing onto the waterblocks on the internal-ends and plug the external-ends into the EXOS on top of the PC case and lock it down. On a 3ghz Pentium 4, it kept temperatures down to 37C at max and 32C was the coldest it ever got but that was when I had the AC turned on in my house:). But still, you have to worry about leaks and changing the fluid once every year (like if you bought it in January, you'd change it in December or the next January at most) so that you can get rid of the built up gunk in the system.

Also, Alienware is a no-no. Their tech-support is horrible and they're reluctant to help sometimes. Plus they'll do things like, in my case, I bought the Alienware 51m laptops when they first came out, two of them for college for me and my bro. They offered the world's first upgradeable graphics solution, a major plus for me because I'm a gamer too, and then they came out with PCI-Express all of a sudden and literally dropped all support for my laptops because they'd have an easier time with the new versions using PCI-Express. They never came out with any higher graphics upgrades than the Radeon 9700 ProM and didn't even offer that as an upgrade at all, all you had was a lowly Quadro and a Geforce 5700, just shameful. So, Alienware isn't a trustworthy company for that reason and if you actually looked on their community forums, you'd see that there's more problems with their computers than you can shake a stick at. It's like indie films, you hear all about the successful ones but you never hear about the unsuccessful ones. My suggestion is to stick with Dell, Voodoo PC, or Falcon Northwest if going OEM. But if you want to go with laptops, there is SAGER and, I must admit, Alienware is hard to beat since they aren't likely to pull another stunt like they did with me. Otherwise, build your own.

PM me if you have any more questions or need help with the building the computer part. I could work up a quick guide with pictures for ya.
 
Now, the other thing is that you'll probably want to wait. As has been stated, AMD's new platform is almost out and quad-cores are around the corner for later this year or early next year. Also, Vista is supposed to come out around then too. Direct X 10 videocards with full HDCP-compliance are also on the way. But if you need one now, build the one above, you won't be sorry.
 
Let's see how that 4.1ghz turns out for long-term stability. This isn't the first time that's happened, many earlier Pentium 4's in the earlier days could get to 3ghz when 2ghz was the top of the line and that showed great performance too. But, would you honestly risk it?
 
I would.


Chips are not necessarily purpose built for their speeds.

Sure, chips in different classes are purpose built.

But, chips in the same family are graded on their quality and then given their speed rating.

Although it makes us feel nice and happy to think that technology is 100% PURE science, it is in fact, part artistry.

It is very complicated to fab a chip.


Just as there is overclocking, there is under-clocking. Manufacturers under-clock chips to hit popular price points. Unless they can sell their processors, they are worthless.

In the case of the above mentioned chip, you don't want or need to go to 4.1Ghz. You merely need to bump it up in the high 3s. This will give you all the performance you want without the headaches.

You might loose 12 months or so of processor life by running such a high and hence hot proc.

But at that price, you can burn 2 out and still be ahead.


As Jack_Felis has said, STABILITY SATABILITY STABILITY.


Get back to me with the answers to the questions I posed and I will shoot of a spec to ya.
 
What is your time frame?
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Need a computer in a month. Two at the latest. I might be able to sneak in another week or two if there was something amazing going down of course.

Any idea how much the FX60 might drop in price once the new chips hit the market? How long does it usually take to see a drop?

What is your budget?
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6K - 8K. 8K being the absolute top I'd be willing to spend. Of course, the lower the price I can get while still going high power the better. =)

Will you be using your lightscribe to label for distribution or just archiving?
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Both though mostly archiving. I suppose a simple permanent marker would be faster and easier for that purpose though! It's something I could lose and not really miss.

Why do you want your 2+TB raid system to be external?
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I'm just not sure whether a coputer case and mother board can handle 2TB of internal raid. No reason other than that really.

Anyone know when conroe is supposed to come out? I've heard good things about it but haven't ever seen data or tests. Along similar lines, when is Windows Vista supposed to be out?

Overclocking is for gamers, for our work it would help too but we should be more focused on rock-solid stability.
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Absolutely. I think it's mostly safe (chip dependent to a degree of course) if you don't go extreme. A little power boost is always a plus!

Regarding the opterons: is it worth getting two of them instead? I'm just not sure that AE could take advantage of all 4 cores.

Good to know regarding the GeForce cards. That's sort of the feeling I was getting as well but hearing it from someone who has a better grasp on this stuff is quite helpful. Looks like I'll be going with two GeForce cards in SLI configuration.

I wasn't aware that water cooling was so problematic! Thanks for the heads uo. So the Coolance water cooling systems work well then and are easy to setup? Might be worth looking into I suppose. Does anyone know of a fan cooled case that doesn't sound like a rocket and could handle a system like this?

PM me if you have any more questions or need help with the building the computer part. I could work up a quick guide with pictures for ya.
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Thank you kindly! I might very well take you up on that offer!

Wow, sorry to hear about your experience with Alienware. I've always only heard good things. Thanks for the info.

Direct X 10 videocards with full HDCP-compliance are also on the way.
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What benefit would there be in waiting for this? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with HDCP.

Hey, there is a way to get a 4.1Ghz dual core intel for $130.
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Holy crap! That's amazing. Sounds like a power hog though... anyone know how these two might compare when equally clocked in terms of power useage? I'd rather pay for a cheaper running processer up front than pay the same amount of more for a overclocked power hog.

But at that price, you can burn 2 out and still be ahead.
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Even with power consumption taken into account? If so that would be a great option as I could spend less on my CPU and upgrade fairly soon without huge expense. Of course, I'd probably only run the thing at mid 3Ghz not 4.

Thank you kindly for all the help guys. I really appreciate it. DVXuser rocks =)
 
HDCP is the security measure they're doing for future media formats like Bluray and such. Here's an exceprt from the FiringSquad gaming website:

HDCP stands for High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection and is an Intel-initiated program that was developed with Silicon Image. This content protection system is mandatory for high-definition playback of HD-DVD or Blu-Ray discs. If you want to watch movies at 1980x1080, your system will need to support HDCP. If you don’t have HDCP support, you’ll only get a quarter of the resolution. A 75% loss in pixel density is a pretty big deal – Wouldn’t you be angry if your car was advertised as doing 16 mpg, and you only got 4 mpg? Or if you bought a 2 GHz CPU and found out that it only ran at 500 MHz?

As part of the Windows-Vista Ready Monitor article, I was going to publish a list of all of the graphics cards that currently support HDCP. I mean, I remember GPUs dating as far back as the Radeon 8500 that had boasted of HDCP support.

Turns out, we were all deceived.
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It's part of their article on HDCP, it's pretty negative but that's just one of the many websites and discussions about this security measure. Things are still being ironed out though, so if this is a big deal for you, you could go with two lesser cards, such as the Geforce 6600-series for less and upgrade later. But that's going a bit extreme.

Also, I deal mostly with Tigerdirect.com or PCProgress.com depending on what I need, Tigerdirect is my main site for computer part purchases though.

Windows Vista, in all its flavors, should be available January 2007. The next processor lines are due, last time I checked, late summer/early to late fall.

AMD FX processors don't really see much in terms of price drops as compared to the regular AMD 64/X2-line.

Two top-of-the-line dual-core Opterons would be ideal but do keep in mind that AE probably won't take advantage as of yet, maybe in the next release:( .

EDIT: Forgot to mention, Direct X 10 is the basic 3D code used for games and other visual elements in Windows. Some FX things use Direct X code and others don't, but that may be lower-end stuff, so maybe it isn't as important for video as it is games. Anybody want to chime in on this one?
 
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Shaw said:
Quick additonal question: Does anyone have a reputable place from which to buy these components?
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Once the system has been designed you can source each of the components based on price, availability, shipping, financing...

There us no reason to purchase everything from one merchant and it actually can be a benefit to spread it around a bit.


I will post specs after the new AMD chipset comes out in a few weeks and the prices start to move down on existing components.
 
AMD FX processors don't really see much in terms of price drops as compared to the regular AMD 64/X2-line.
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Interesting. I wonder how much the X2 4800+ will drop? Might be a nice price to performance sweet spot.

Right now I'm looking at motherboards and am having a hard time deciding what looks best. Does anyone have a recommendation that would fit this project well?

One thing I'm still not certain about is how much memory Windows XP can take advantage of. It looks like it's limited to two gigs?

Two top-of-the-line dual-core Opterons would be ideal but do keep in mind that AE probably won't take advantage as of yet, maybe in the next release
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Yeah, rather unfortunate really :(
 
Well, as I've said, the ASUS A8N 32-SLI-Deluxe motherboard is a great choice. It's been one of the top best Athlon 64/X2/FX boards since I can remember, mostly because it was one of the first to feature two full 16x PCI-Express slots for the best SLI performance. When SLI first came out, all the SLI-capable motherboards had was one 16x slot and an 8x slot, thus hampering SLI performance a bit. But now there's plenty of motherboards that sport two 16x slots specifically for SLI configurations. Unfortunately I haven't been as up to date on motherboards as I would have liked to in the past few months, so I can't really recommend too many outside of ASUS and Abit. Abit makes some pretty darn good motherboards too but, as with all electronics, regardless of what brand you go with, be sure to look at reviews on a few websites before making your final decision.

Also, If you can manage it, Tyan makes some rockin' motherboards too, if not the best.

If you have a Fry's electronics anywhere near you, you can go and check/buy some of these things too, though their service around there is poor, they make up for it by having a wide selection of products.
 
Your question is timely. This month the Computer Shopper magazine cover story is "Build a Great PC for $500." Newegg.com has most every part you're looking for. I built a PC for the first time in 2004. Easier than you think. My total cost for a high-middle, to lower-high end, system at that time was around $450. Tower only. Had the rest of the odds n' ends.

I.
 
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Wow, I'm glad I did a search on this before posting the very same question. I have a Dell Dimension 2400 that I was "given" as an incentive when I bought my 2003 Saturn Vue. It sucks overall but has served me well-enough for video editing. The problem is that my stepson loves Empire Earth II and (1) is always wanting to use our computer to play it AND (2) the game runs slow on the 2400. I think it's because the 2400's built-in video card is low speed. SO anyway, my goal is to change the video card in the Dell and give it to the boys for their room. Besides this game, everything else they do is low-tech. Then build an editing powerhouse for myself. Actually, I would do these things in the reverse order.

Anyway, questions ...
I do have a Fry's in my area and was wondering whether it would be more cost-effective to buy one of their pre-fab'd computers, build myself from their parts, or check some of the sites you guys have mentioned in order to build from scratch: newgg, TigerDirect, PCProgress. I'm usually pretty handy and have added things on to computers and all that (HD, optical drive, RAM, video card, messed with BIOS as needed, etc. However, the idea of building from scratch scares me because that involves not just changing what's already done, but creating it from jump. I could probably figure it out, but I would like some input on how complicated it is. Of course that's a loaded question because your response will be quite subjective. For those of you who do not have a degree or classroom training in computer electronics, IT, etc, or work in a place where you've had to build/programme computers, what was it like when you built your FIRST computer from scratch?

Also, what about the idea of buying a barebones system then suping it up as desired?

Last, is there any reason to go with Tyan over ASUS and if so, which model would you recommend? Thanks for so much detail Jack.
 
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Now that I've researched these parts a bit (so far newegg only), I have a few questions:
Jack, you recommend the AMD Athlon FX-60, which doesn't appear to be available. Only the FX-64. Should I keep searching for the FX-60?

RE: hard drives, I already have two external HDs, one connected via firewire and the other via USB2. I'd really rather not switch to RAID, as I just did this config recently. I'd just move the current config to the newly-built computer. As for internal, wouldn't a single 120-160 mb HD be sufficient if the computer will be dedicated to video editing? Also, considering the price difference, what is the benefit of serial ATA over IDE? We're talking minimum $275 for ONE serial ATA 160 mb HD vs ~$75 for the same size drive in IDE. Maybe the prices would be better at Fry's as they're always having sales.

RE: WinXP, I have OEM WinXP Home that I could just install on newly-built computer. What's benefit of paying for XP Pro, and if I do, is there any reason to go with SP2 already included (couldn't I just dl the SP2)?

RE: monitor, why specifically Dell? I love my Dell 17" flat screen, but as I said earlier it was free. There are other manufacturers out there with less expensive monitors with same specs.

Some of these are tech questions, while others--I admit-- may seem like devil's advocate questions. But I'm asking because I truly don't understand some of these differences. I could just build a computer to your specs, but as I watch the price rise, I'm wondering about options--especially after someone else said they built a computer in 2004 for $400.

Anyway, thanks in advance ....
 
Hey, I'm a bit of a computer jockey and I'm hoping I can provide some assistance to some stuff mentioned earlier.

The pentium dual cores with crazy overclocking namely the entry level P805 I believe it is, are sort of give & take, from what I've heard only certain P805's made are compatible with the overclocking technique from Toms Hardware Guide, (like 1 in 2) so its a risky move because if you don't getthe nice one, you've got a pretty shitty processor on your hands.


Also most of the parts you've listed will be cheapest at NewEgg, however TigerDirect has good CPU & memory prices often.

Wait until AM2 launches NOT to get an AM2 processor, but to get the accompanying price drops which will be significant on almost every current desktop processor. Hell, intel dropped some of the high-end processors over 40% last time they did a drop, so it could be a LOT of cash in your pocket, more so AMD will naturally want to push the new AM2 line so you'll see significant (not huge) drops on the mid range AMD's and at least osme movement downwards on the FX series (not huge I'd bet, but still cash in your pocket).
 
Paul Reichelt said:
Hey, I'm a bit of a computer jockey and I'm hoping I can provide some assistance to some stuff mentioned earlier.

The pentium dual cores with crazy overclocking namely the entry level P805 I believe it is, are sort of give & take, from what I've heard only certain P805's made are compatible with the overclocking technique from Toms Hardware Guide, (like 1 in 2) so its a risky move because if you don't getthe nice one, you've got a pretty shi*ty processor on your hands.


Also most of the parts you've listed will be cheapest at NewEgg, however TigerDirect has good CPU & memory prices often.

Wait until AM2 launches NOT to get an AM2 processor, but to get the accompanying price drops which will be significant on almost every current desktop processor. Hell, intel dropped some of the high-end processors over 40% last time they did a drop, so it could be a LOT of cash in your pocket, more so AMD will naturally want to push the new AM2 line so you'll see significant (not huge) drops on the mid range AMD's and at least osme movement down

wards on the FX series (not huge I'd bet, but still cash in your pocket).
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CorrectaMundo my friend!!!

Also, if you do want to overclock you can check the numbers on your processor box to make sure it will work before you open it.
 
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