j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Lithium fluoride is a good moderator for the fast neutrons...
from:
Infinite Improbability Drive Operators Manual: "Chapter IV: Chronon Hopping".
He will not read your F*ing script
- Thread starter ChipG
- Start date
Lithium fluoride is a good moderator for the fast neutrons...
from:
Infinite Improbability Drive Operators Manual: "Chapter IV: Chronon Hopping".
Ted Spencer
Veteran
That's what *she* said...
mentatDUKE
Veteran
It's times like this I'm grateful for people like David Mullen. He's a working professional and always takes time to give us advice and look at our work, etc.
Is it hard? Yes. Is it time consuming? Yes.
But he still does it and is one of the nicest mentors I've ever had the privilege to interact with. I hope more people take him as an example rather than Josh Olson. Attitude is everything...
Is it hard? Yes. Is it time consuming? Yes.
But he still does it and is one of the nicest mentors I've ever had the privilege to interact with. I hope more people take him as an example rather than Josh Olson. Attitude is everything...
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
For the record... I'm NOT a Stern fan... when the show is funny I listen, when it offends me, I turn it off :beer:
I think Stern is a capable comedian that pushes the show into areas that don't serve the comedic style... and needlessly turn away potential fans.
But since you commented on that... we have a few "Benji VORTEX" situations going on here... this whole article and situation isn't nearly as passionate and irritating as some want it to be... for sake of attention through debate... or some other pseudo-intellectual reasons that are automatically defunct due to commentary contradictory to the actual text of the article.
David Gerrold's response, in the Village Voice:
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/09/scifi_writer_da.php
Among the hundreds of comments we've received in reaction to Josh Olson's acerbic rant, "I Will Not Read Your f*cking Script," was this gem by longtime science fiction writer David Gerrold. For those of you who don't obsess about Star Trek, it was Gerrold who penned the "Trouble with Tribbles" episode of the original series. A Hugo and Nebula award winner, Gerrold has written dozens of novels. And here's his take on Olson's piece:
Josh is being way too polite. The only proper response when an amateur attempts to hand you his manuscript, his screenplay, his unpublished novel, his short story, his treatment, his outline, his notes, is to take an axe to his laptop, follow him home, burn down his house, and salt the ground.
Not too long ago, a writer of my acquaintance (a person of some fame in the industry) was hired to work on a major franchise. After several months of development, the project was making genuine progress and looked good. Then one day, out of the blue, an amateur from West Elbow, Nevada, sends him an email containing her outline for a spinoff of that franchise, asking him to help her sell it because "she has the story, but he has the access to the people who will produce it." My friend backed away in horror, but the damage was done...
He had received this woman's email. Even the act of telling her, "No, I can't help you," was an acknowledgment of receipt. Therefore she could prove that he'd had access to her material -- and it didn't matter that he'd already done six months on the project -- her email had created a situation where she (and an unscrupulous lawyer) could claim that he had ripped off elements in her material.
The studio's lawyers were not happy and my friend almost got booted off the project, until he informed the amateur that he intended to sue her for compromising his ability to earn a living. She signed and notarized a waiver and he got to keep his job.
After that, he changed his email and now has an assistant screen everything and reply with a, "Mr. Twain does not live here anymore and if you send anymore unsolicited material, we will forward your email address to the Dept of Homeland Security for attempting to terrorize an American author."
Reading someone's manuscript is a great way to get sued by an idiot and an unscrupulous lawyer.
Real writers write, they understand enough about writing to know that writing time is so precious that you NEVER impose on someone else's working time.
On the other hand, if you're really serious about getting the opinion of a professional author, I bill at $500 an hour....
David Gerrold
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/09/scifi_writer_da.php
Among the hundreds of comments we've received in reaction to Josh Olson's acerbic rant, "I Will Not Read Your f*cking Script," was this gem by longtime science fiction writer David Gerrold. For those of you who don't obsess about Star Trek, it was Gerrold who penned the "Trouble with Tribbles" episode of the original series. A Hugo and Nebula award winner, Gerrold has written dozens of novels. And here's his take on Olson's piece:
Josh is being way too polite. The only proper response when an amateur attempts to hand you his manuscript, his screenplay, his unpublished novel, his short story, his treatment, his outline, his notes, is to take an axe to his laptop, follow him home, burn down his house, and salt the ground.
Not too long ago, a writer of my acquaintance (a person of some fame in the industry) was hired to work on a major franchise. After several months of development, the project was making genuine progress and looked good. Then one day, out of the blue, an amateur from West Elbow, Nevada, sends him an email containing her outline for a spinoff of that franchise, asking him to help her sell it because "she has the story, but he has the access to the people who will produce it." My friend backed away in horror, but the damage was done...
He had received this woman's email. Even the act of telling her, "No, I can't help you," was an acknowledgment of receipt. Therefore she could prove that he'd had access to her material -- and it didn't matter that he'd already done six months on the project -- her email had created a situation where she (and an unscrupulous lawyer) could claim that he had ripped off elements in her material.
The studio's lawyers were not happy and my friend almost got booted off the project, until he informed the amateur that he intended to sue her for compromising his ability to earn a living. She signed and notarized a waiver and he got to keep his job.
After that, he changed his email and now has an assistant screen everything and reply with a, "Mr. Twain does not live here anymore and if you send anymore unsolicited material, we will forward your email address to the Dept of Homeland Security for attempting to terrorize an American author."
Reading someone's manuscript is a great way to get sued by an idiot and an unscrupulous lawyer.
Real writers write, they understand enough about writing to know that writing time is so precious that you NEVER impose on someone else's working time.
On the other hand, if you're really serious about getting the opinion of a professional author, I bill at $500 an hour....
David Gerrold
BTW, I love to read scripts (first timers) for a reason, they all tell you what not to do...
If anyone want's an education on what not to do read a script from a wanna be first, second or turd writer.
Everything not to do is in them... Just listen...
Karl, how's your dad? I said a prayer for him but I have this strange feeling he is drinkin beer (with a hand on his rib cage at a strip club) laughing his ass off right now. Parents are smarter than we are
If anyone want's an education on what not to do read a script from a wanna be first, second or turd writer.
Everything not to do is in them... Just listen...
Karl, how's your dad? I said a prayer for him but I have this strange feeling he is drinkin beer (with a hand on his rib cage at a strip club) laughing his ass off right now. Parents are smarter than we are
Hmmmm....you seem to be a conduit for Hollywood's upper echelon.
Why don't you get them to make DVXuser accounts so we can hear from them firsthand?rogar-Dum(DBG):
Yea, there is nothing more that they want to do than come here to talk to you...
Just sayin', like they will make time for you........
Come on man, sorry I missed this post but reality checks are good for people like you who think top industry guys/gals are going to stop everything they are doing to come talk to us.
Give me a break, going to McDonalds right now..
EDIT: Just made a phone call, it was a hang up..............SORRY
Azmyth
Veteran
I'm new to the industry. Like REALLY new. I'm almost done writing my very first script for my very first feature film. I'm a prime candidate for one of the people he's talking about in his rant. I actually agree and understand.
I think he was a bit harsh, but the words I can relate with.
I actually felt kind of bad asking if anyone wanted to check out my script over in another thread, after reading this. But.. then I remembered something. I offered it up to anyone that was willing.. not begging for one specific person to read it like they were some sort of script god, that could solve all my script writing problems.
Its my first one, I know there's issues with it. Quite frankly, I'd rather have close friends and family read it and a few non industry aquaintances than a industry pro. I have no intentions of selling it to anyone. For my needs, it doesn't matter if its perfect as long as it tells a story people want to hear. People like Josh won't watch nor care to watch my movie, and I'm fine with that.
I wouldn't mind having someone with experience look it offer.. but I will not beg. if they offer it, then sure.. they are more than welcome to read it. It'd be like running up to a famous actor and saying "Can you show me how you got into that one character from xfilm?". While they are trying to spend time with family at a restaurant.. etc. Like has been said previously, getting stuff for free isn't so much the issue as is how you go about it.
My film so far has aquired a ton of stuff for free. I really honestly hate asking people to work for free. I actually have turned down some highly experienced highly credited crew, just because I didn't feel my project was worthy enough for them to be on without decent pay. I'd rather work with non experienced friends, than put these experts in their craft through yet another crappy low budget movie they will never get a dime/credit for. Sure, I can offer them this stuff.. but they know as well I do that its slim that it will be lucrative for everyone. Even the creators will suffer if it doesn't do well.
I've had a few people STILL want to work with me, even after I tell them this stuff up front. Do they want to work for free? No.. but, I've been honest and up front. Its like getting your first car.. At 16-17 you have 0 credit.. so you will have to get someone to help you, out of the goodness of there heart. Should it be the "standard" no.. and thats the issue. People think that the standard is "OH THEY'LL JUST WORK FOR FREE. No, if I had the money to pay them.. I most certainly would. Some people will say if you can't pay everyone, then you shouldn't even be filming in the first place. I'm sure there's accounts in all forms of business where they weren't able to get started without a labor of love from someone wanting to see them succeed.
Anyway, back on topic..
favor for a favor...
You read mine, I'll read yours...
You let me borrow your camera, I'll hook you up with my audio gear...
You let me use your location, I'll help you secure one here...
It goes a long way.
For a professional though.. they do this stuff daily. Maybe they just want a break?
I was in a pretty big band for a few years, and Kids would ALL THE TIME solicit demos to me, wanting us to listen to their band.. thinking we could do something for them. Most of the time all that ever became of the demos was listening material for the road.. and most of the time it was TERRIBLE.. and we just made fun of it. But yeah, sometimes when you do something constantly.. even though you love it.. that doesn't mean you want to help everyone else do it constantly as well.
Oh and, if you need someone else to read your script to tell you its "good".. then it probably isn't. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If some romantic comedy expert read my script, and told me it sucked.. it would be just the same as if uncle Bill who runs the bait and tackle shop read it who only watches Charles Bronson movies.
I think he was a bit harsh, but the words I can relate with.
I actually felt kind of bad asking if anyone wanted to check out my script over in another thread, after reading this. But.. then I remembered something. I offered it up to anyone that was willing.. not begging for one specific person to read it like they were some sort of script god, that could solve all my script writing problems.
Its my first one, I know there's issues with it. Quite frankly, I'd rather have close friends and family read it and a few non industry aquaintances than a industry pro. I have no intentions of selling it to anyone. For my needs, it doesn't matter if its perfect as long as it tells a story people want to hear. People like Josh won't watch nor care to watch my movie, and I'm fine with that.
I wouldn't mind having someone with experience look it offer.. but I will not beg. if they offer it, then sure.. they are more than welcome to read it. It'd be like running up to a famous actor and saying "Can you show me how you got into that one character from xfilm?". While they are trying to spend time with family at a restaurant.. etc. Like has been said previously, getting stuff for free isn't so much the issue as is how you go about it.
My film so far has aquired a ton of stuff for free. I really honestly hate asking people to work for free. I actually have turned down some highly experienced highly credited crew, just because I didn't feel my project was worthy enough for them to be on without decent pay. I'd rather work with non experienced friends, than put these experts in their craft through yet another crappy low budget movie they will never get a dime/credit for. Sure, I can offer them this stuff.. but they know as well I do that its slim that it will be lucrative for everyone. Even the creators will suffer if it doesn't do well.
I've had a few people STILL want to work with me, even after I tell them this stuff up front. Do they want to work for free? No.. but, I've been honest and up front. Its like getting your first car.. At 16-17 you have 0 credit.. so you will have to get someone to help you, out of the goodness of there heart. Should it be the "standard" no.. and thats the issue. People think that the standard is "OH THEY'LL JUST WORK FOR FREE. No, if I had the money to pay them.. I most certainly would. Some people will say if you can't pay everyone, then you shouldn't even be filming in the first place. I'm sure there's accounts in all forms of business where they weren't able to get started without a labor of love from someone wanting to see them succeed.
Anyway, back on topic..
favor for a favor...
You read mine, I'll read yours...
You let me borrow your camera, I'll hook you up with my audio gear...
You let me use your location, I'll help you secure one here...
It goes a long way.
For a professional though.. they do this stuff daily. Maybe they just want a break?
I was in a pretty big band for a few years, and Kids would ALL THE TIME solicit demos to me, wanting us to listen to their band.. thinking we could do something for them. Most of the time all that ever became of the demos was listening material for the road.. and most of the time it was TERRIBLE.. and we just made fun of it. But yeah, sometimes when you do something constantly.. even though you love it.. that doesn't mean you want to help everyone else do it constantly as well.
Oh and, if you need someone else to read your script to tell you its "good".. then it probably isn't. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If some romantic comedy expert read my script, and told me it sucked.. it would be just the same as if uncle Bill who runs the bait and tackle shop read it who only watches Charles Bronson movies.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
There are some sites where pros do interact with lowly mortals. Or, if they don't interact directly, have blogs, info, articles, etc. that are far more useful to the aspiring writer, than trying to fit into a clown suit and get one's script in to the hands of those caught up with themselves.
But Josh Olson is so last week...
Ted Spencer
Veteran
Azymyth, you might want to check out some of the "peer-to-peer" screenwriting criticism sites like zoetrope.com (and others, the names of which I can't think of right now). You read and review a certain number of other folk's scripts (4, on Zoe) and then you're permitted to upload a PDF of one of your own for review by others. I've done it a couple times and gotten 5 or 6 reviews each time, some of which were pretty useless, but others were quite worth the effort.
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Nektonic
Veteran
That's where things get tricky. You have to stick to your guns if you truly believe in your writing. You just can't please everyone. Constructive criticism is great for the technical/craft side of things, but I've found that a lot of times it can steer your script's soul in the wrong direction if you don't have a firm grasp on what your script's theme and basic reason for existing in the first place is.
I mean, if someone writes something just for the sake of it being a commercially viable high concept story, they might not have the interest to stick to their guns when it counts. Also, you can stick to your guns when discussing and debating the merits and problems of a piece of writing without being an asshole about it towards those that disagree with your perspective.
I think the problem with the whole thing that caused Josh Olson to rant is that he held up his end of the bargain in reading this amateur writer's synopsis. Just because Josh Olson didn't like it doesn't give the writer free reign to throw a tizzy and act like a spoiled brat. It's too bad that there are those people out there with little or no common sense and respect that then ruin it for all of us that "get it".
I'd wager that most writers understand that when they are truly asking for criticism, that there is an understanding that the person reading and critiquing their work might not like it. In the event that they don't, the writer still wins if they gain some good ideas on what to fix and it just helps them to understand what isn't clear or working for the reader, and by extension, the potential audience. If a writer truly believe in their work, they can take those bad reviews and either shrug 'em off or better yet, use them to polish their work.
As for people asking pro writers for critiques and analysis, there are plenty of professional screenplay consultants that do this for a living that would be more appropriate for this type of thing. Sure, some if them might be a bit pricy, but if a writer has an idea they believe in and have written the crap out of, then it is worth it to take it to the limit if they need to. Besides, the point at which a script goes to a consultant is after several or dozens of drafts, not on a first draft the day after the words FADE OUT are typed into Celtx/Movie Magic/Final Draft.
If I ever make it as big Hollywood screenwriter, I will just refer aspiring writers to a good consultant if I couldn't or didn't want to read their work.
Exactly. Not everyone is going to like a given script or film no matter how well written or how masterfully executed it is. For example, I know several people who hate one of my all time favorite films, Aliens, which is considered a classic and the top of the line film in the sci-fi/action genre. They don't dislike it because they think the story is bad or that it was badly made. The problem is they just can't handle the slimy insectile aliens. It's just not everyone's cup of tea. Totally understandable and nothing wrong with that at all.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
There is also the 'short script' section on zoetrope.com.
Triggerstreet has a 'feature' script section, but no 'short scripts'... but they do have 'short films'... go figure...
I did look at my script review history on zoetrope, and I have not reviewed something in over a year... my how time flies...
One of the 'benefits' of such reviews are there are a bunch of format nazis just itching to complain about ever minor nit... it's almost like having a bitchy grammar school teacher right there in the privacy of your own home...
There's also wordplayer for articles from Elliott and Rossio. I've had some problems with the web Administrix there, she has things set up with reallly strict filtering rules, so if you happen to have a 'bad' IP address, handed to you from your ISP provider, it is sometimes a hassle to access the site.
There is also artfulwriter.com, and Craig Mazin has provided a forum, and it is sometimes visited by current hollywood writers.
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Ted Spencer
Veteran
Good points, Nektonic.
Stephen King, in his excellent book "On Writing", discusses the issue of criticism and its relevance/dangers/benefits etc. Basically he says that criticism is invaluable (his primary critic is his wife, who is also a writer), but you need to choose your critics wisely. This doesn't mean choosing people who will rubber-stamp or automatically love every thing you do - that would defeat the purpose of course. But don't ask someone who hates the science-fantasy genre what he thinks of your outer-space time-travel adventure, and don't ask someone who thinks most romcoms are "hokey" (to quote my dad) what they think of your homage to "When Harry Met Sally".
I recently had about 15 people comment on a short script I wrote, but deliberately chose not to give it to some people who I know from past experience are not properly equipped to do so (in my view, of course). I think it was a more effective sampling of opinion this time for that reason. I also tried to get it to people who I thought might actually be fans of the genre, and that produced among the most interesting results (which, thankfully, were largely very positive).
Theoretically, had James Cameron shown the "Titanic" script to enough of the wrong people, he might have changed it or dropped the idea altogether, and the world would have been deprived of the only $3B grossing film in history (including video sales). Lucky for us (yes, I'm a 'Titanic' fan), he apparently didn't...
Stephen King, in his excellent book "On Writing", discusses the issue of criticism and its relevance/dangers/benefits etc. Basically he says that criticism is invaluable (his primary critic is his wife, who is also a writer), but you need to choose your critics wisely. This doesn't mean choosing people who will rubber-stamp or automatically love every thing you do - that would defeat the purpose of course. But don't ask someone who hates the science-fantasy genre what he thinks of your outer-space time-travel adventure, and don't ask someone who thinks most romcoms are "hokey" (to quote my dad) what they think of your homage to "When Harry Met Sally".
I recently had about 15 people comment on a short script I wrote, but deliberately chose not to give it to some people who I know from past experience are not properly equipped to do so (in my view, of course). I think it was a more effective sampling of opinion this time for that reason. I also tried to get it to people who I thought might actually be fans of the genre, and that produced among the most interesting results (which, thankfully, were largely very positive).
Theoretically, had James Cameron shown the "Titanic" script to enough of the wrong people, he might have changed it or dropped the idea altogether, and the world would have been deprived of the only $3B grossing film in history (including video sales). Lucky for us (yes, I'm a 'Titanic' fan), he apparently didn't...
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j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
I doubt if working writers are the best group to ask for 'criticism' from... at least writers who are not also involved in teaching or inclined to mentoring...
The 'best' critic is one's self... and that needs to be developed to a fine edge...
If there is some 'truth' to the Olson story... Writer X had not developed the internal critical capability... that would have prevented him from handing over a lacking synopsis in the first place...
Format errors don't bother me but studio execs will throw any non properly formatted script in the trash, actually thier assistants will throw them in the trash before they even get to them.
If you want to sell a script or be taken seriously it better not have any format errors. Nazi complaints are a good thing unless it's a personal project/movie type thing then they become annoying.
Nektonic
Veteran
I think that On Writing it is a great book for both novelists and screenwriters because the basic principles are about writing in general and not about the form or specific formatting styles.
I tend to also agree with what King said and your interpretation of it. Criticism is good if you know how to use it to improve your work. A novice might freak out and either wreck their script or throw a tantrum but those that understand the process use criticism to good effect, even the really abysmal reviews.
Exactly. Although I too liked Titanic in addition to all of Cameron's other films, there are lots of people that only love his earlier work like Terminator and Aliens but who just didn't dig Titanic. He shifted to a whole new demographic when going from action films to his epic period piece.
Still though, i think it is beneficial to stick to the proper formatting when writing personal projects or short film scripts. The screenplay format works and is the way it is for good reason. Consistency with the form will be beneficial later in a writer's career if it is an ingrained skill and not one that merely relies on software.
10s
Veteran
Plenty of profession screenwriters run their drafts past regualr folks for feedback, why? because regular folks go to the movies. They'll tell you what they like and don't like, just like your peers. In the end it's your judgement that counts. It's your judgement that selected every small detail and it's your judgement that will filter all feedback. A hit movie screenplay is when the author's judgement creates the emotional journey regular people are looking forward to when they watch a movie. Be judgemental!