HD Question - Confused

Jeremy Ordan

Jeremy Ordan

Major Contributor
OK, this is a strange question, well at least to me, but we were at lunch today and this question came up and I didn't know how to answer it or how to make sense of it.

To my understand, the reason we all bought the DVX was because it shoots in 24p, and the purpose of 24p is to imitate how film works to give video that film look. OK, this makes perfect sense to me.


Now, what is the deal with HD @ 24p? I mean the whole point of high definition is that it doesn't look anything like film. I have a HDTV at home, watch my ballgames on it, and it looks nothing like film.

Wouldn't it be considered then an oxymoron to shoot HD @ 24p?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't get it.
 
HD just means more pixels. More pixels = better large-screen display. HD/24p has been used in several theatrically-released motion pictures (including Star Wars II & III, Spy Kids II & III, Collateral, Once Upon A Time In Mexico, etc).

What you're seeing is that interlaced HD looks nothing remotely anything in any way like film. Interlaced HD looks like supersharp supervideo -- it has a hyper-reality "snap" and "wow" that really makes it look like you're looking through a window.

But 24P HD just looks like DVX 24p but with 3x to 5x as many pixels per frame. Doesn't rule out filmlike look at all, it just makes your footage hold up better to larger-screen display.
 
If you are shooting sport for (HD)TV, you want the motion to look nice and smooth so you can clearly see what is happening. Therefore you would use 50/60i or 60p at 720p (which is better still for clear movement).

However audiences are conditioned by all the fictional films that they have watched for the last hundred years and these are mostly shot at 24 non-interlaced frames per second. This looks "jerky." Jerky, but "filmic."

Therefore if you want to shoot a HD fictional piece, 24p will give it the look the audience expects. Shooting at 50/60i or 60p would probably make the audience say "this looks like TV."

Some documentaries use progressive capture to make the program look "more classy." A lot of video originated soaps and sitcoms are also doing the same.

HD is better than film (at 24 fps) for sports etc., however audiences want "movies" to look like "film" so in that case HD emulates film with all its jerkyness and glory. (Disclaimer: I'm not saying HD is better than film yet.)
 
I appreciate the elaboration, but I guess it is still not making sense to me. Regarding the blow up to film, ok, after reading Barry's notes about film blow up it makes sense, but the whole picture image thing, HD and Film seem to be going after completely different audiences. I have seen star wars and once upon a time in mexico, but for some reason when I am trying to get my mind around it, it is just not making sense. I appreciate the answers, but I guess there is something that I am just not getting. I guess I'll just have to wait and see HD24p in action...
 
Doesn't have to be blown up to film -- HD looks a lot better on a 60" TV than SD does.

Just separate HD from 24p completely, and look at it on its own. Compare interlace to interlace: a DVX in 60i vs. an HD camera in 60i. Both look like "video", but the HD camera has a lot more pixels and renders a lot more detail.

Then compare a DVX in 24P to an HD camera in 24P. Both will have filmlike motion, but the HD camera will have a lot more pixels and therefore render a lot more detail.
 
Okay, let me try again, as I think I see where you're coming from...

HD, by itself, is nothing like film. Nothing. It's just higher-resolution video.

But if you add 24p in the mix, then it becomes like a higher-resolution DVX -- and who can argue with that?

High-def has been around for a long, long time. But it was completely ignored by filmmakers, as it was a totally unsuitable medium for making movies. It was, after all, interlaced video. Filmmakers ignored it and continued to shoot on film.

It wasn't until 1999 when Sony introduced the CineAlta, with the combination of HD AND 24P, that filmmakers began to take notice. And there have been many, many films made in HD24P. And they can look very filmlike. And the higher resolution helps the image hold up much better on large-screen projection.

HD without 24P = high-res video, totally unsuitable for filmmaking
HD plus 24P = high-res filmlike video, much sought after for filmmaking
 
TheYankee said:
Now, what is the deal with HD @ 24p? I mean the whole point of high definition is that it doesn't look anything like film.
Click to expand...

That isn't true. Film was invented to record what the eye sees. Video was then invented to do the same job, but instantly.

Cinema movies has been traditionally shot on film.

Cinema film typically runs at 24 fps and that is what audiences now expect to see in the cinema.

Video then improved on film by capturing motion more smoothly (more "human eye" like) with the use of higher sampling rates, around double that or film's 24fps. In order to carry the extra data the interlacing system was developed. This sampled half a frame every 60th of a second instead of one frame every 30th and looks smoother as a result. Television was then transmitted at 60 interlaced frames per second (or 50 in PAL land).

Modern 720p HD can actually broadcast smooth motion without interlacing using 60p. This step forward is possible because of digital compression and transmition. 720p60 looks great for fast action like sports.

BUT... the audiences still like the old jerky 24 frames per second of film when they watch cinema movies and fictional dramas. It looks more "filmic" than the super smooth interaced (60i/50i) or 60p TV images.

Therefore HD (and SD in cameras such as the DVX) video has been made to record at 24p. This is to deliberately EMULATE film.

HD is trying its hardest to look just like film!!!!!!!

With cameras such as the CineAlta (in HD) and DVX (in SD) they have succeeded in matching film's motion characteristics. Now they are trying to match (& beat) film's colour and contrast handling.
 
You've probably seen HD24p many times, and just not known it. Ever watch the TV series Joan of Arcadia? That was shot HD24P. Many, many television commercials are being shot in HD24p. Several sitcoms too. I'm not "up" on all that's going on in HD24p, but there's probably a lot more than you think. Next time you watch a film-looking series in HD, you might want to ask yourself if the series is shot in 35mm or in HD24P.
 
As far as the HVX Book release, that's all dependent on when the camera comes out. I've got to learn everything I can about it before I can finish the book on it -- so probably not before January.
 
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