H4N ZOOM for my Canon 5D - advice needed?

W

WhereDreamsAreBorn

Carbonite Member
Hi I am buying a Canon 5D along with alsorts of extras. Track and dolly, shoulder mount, various lenses, tripod, etc. I will almost be one man filmmaker.

Now sound is my weakest area, and i need some advice about capturing high quality sound. I'll be making mainly fiction films. Now as a recorder goes I hear H4N zoom is the best out there. It has a built in microphone.

Do i simply connect it onto my shoulder mount/tripod along with the camera, and point it forward.

Is it advisable to also plug in and attach a boom mic (as well as using the H4N mic) onto my shoulder mount pointing forward.

Is it better to use hidden mic's on actors? Or hidden mics and H4N?

What if there is an actor, who is speaking, but off screen. Do I record his dialogue as well or just whoever is onscreen, at any present moment.

Also, would a better solution be to always employ a separate soundman using a boom pole mic?

How do i power HN4, and what about memory cards?

I ask all this as I HATE bad sound. But i don't know enough about it.
 
Since you don't know much about sound, get a sound guy with a boom mic and then learn from him is my advice.:happy:
 
PSA1 said:
Since you don't know much about sound, get a sound guy with a boom mic and then learn from him is my advice.:happy:
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I didn't know those are the only two things you need to record sound.

Seriously, what kind of response is this? He is asking for advice to specific questions. We are here in this forum to learn form eachother.
 
sure you can connect it to your shoulder mount. its nice to have it where you can see it and can monitor the levels.

you can use shotgun/hyper pluged in, and yes point it towards your subject. but the sound is only going to be better if you get that mic off your cam and get it as close to your subject as possible without getting into frame.

hiding lavalier mics on subjects is an artform itself. i say get down your sound basics before you try and tackle that. K.I.S.S.(keep it simple stupid)

i have never used the onboard mics of my zoom, always using an xlr based mic. i guess you could use them to grab NAT sounds, ambience or to do Foley perhaps.

if an actor is speaking off screen and their dialogue is part of the the script then of course you want thier dialogue recorded, but thats where editing comes in to play. you shoot each actor delivering their lines, you also shoot reactions to the other actors for coverage, you might use the actor talking or you might use the other's reaction but you'll def use the sound if its in the script, just depends on the edit i guess.

always better to have a boom op/sound mixer running your sound. thats why PSA1 suggested you hire a sound guy. you really have no clue to sound gathering from your post so it sounds like this isn't the job for you. not saying it couldn't be, but there's a lot you don't know and hiring someone(who knows what they are doing) could really help you wrap your head around sound.

h4n is powered by either AA batteries or AC power by plugging in to a wall socket.

there are a lot of stickies in the audio area so reading all of those would be a great start.
 
1) No, don't just point it forward. The reason that the H4N is popular is because it has 2 XLR inputs, so you can connect professional mics to it, unlike to the 7D, which only has a 1/8" input (and no manual audio controls.)
2) I think you are using the term boom mic incorrectly. A boom mic is not a type of mic, but a system of a microphone (usually a shotgun or hypercardioid), a shock mount, and a pole (boom) to get the mic close to the action. You absolutely need a second person running audio to use a boom mic if you are running the camera. If you do have a second person, then he or she can carry the H4N, there's no reason to keep it attached to the camera.
3) Lav mics are another option, but they will sound vastly different than any mic you put on a boom. If you mix them with a boom, you will probably need to do EQ later.
4) If the actor will be shown speaking in his or her own angle (reverse shot), then don't bother mic'ing that person in the angle where they aren't on screen. The person on screen has the audio priority.
5) See 2
6) AA batteries, SD or SDHC card
 
WhereDreamsAreBorn said:
...
Is it advisable to also plug in and attach a boom mic (as well as using the H4N mic) onto my shoulder mount pointing forward.

...
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A boom mic is not at or attached to your camera or shoulder mount. It is on a long fishpole boom, carried and manipulated by a boom operator, and positioned just kissing the top of the frame approximately 20 inches from the mouth of the person speaking. It is only under very rare circumstances that you can get good sound with any mic aimed from anywhere at or near the camera.
 
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OK guys thanks for the great advice.

I was hoping to capture sound, buy simply having the H4N and a 'shotgun' microphone both attached onto my camera rig, picking up sound of whichever actor(s) is in any given shot.

I guess most of the time, the actors will be reasonable close to the camera, but there could be instances where i am filming them from a long distance, and therefore i imagine the sound quality wouldn't be that good.

And i want to make very high quality films (which of ocurse means high quality sound).

So are you saying there is no real way to get high quality sound without having a specialist soundman always stood as close as possible to the actors. If thats the case, should i forget buying a H4N? Or is there any harm having a separate soundman, and i also use a H4N just as you say for added ambience and stuff?
 
it depends what "good audio" is to you and the viewers of your film.

and by close, we mean 18" away from the mouth. you start getting any further than that and sound starts getting twice as bad(inverse square law).

if you really want to learn about audio then you should get the dvxuser sound for film dvd, its very helpful for someone in your position.
http://oktava.com/inc/sdetail/4552 (couldn't find it quicklike on this site)
 
egproductions said:
I didn't know those are the only two things you need to record sound.

Seriously, what kind of response is this? He is asking for advice to specific questions. We are here in this forum to learn form eachother.
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He said he wanted high quality sound for his film, and from his questions about it he is weak in that department no doubt, and the best way for him to learn is from an experience sound man, I can and everybody else can answered his questions to the T but I guarantee he won't do as good as if he hire a sound man for the job and at the same time learn from him and this is an honest suggestion and not that I'm trying to be an ass.
 
When i say good audio, i guess whatever professional level films refer to as good audio. Its just that i have seen a few films, where the audio isn't great, and it is a major let down. If i wnated to shoot something that was viewed in cinemas, or whatever. That quality i guess.

I'm not simply filming stuff just for the internet (or whatever). I would like to show it off to other professionals too.
 
Well it is a really good sign that you have (on your own, perhaps intuitively) realized the need for quality sound. There are a lot of people that have no idea how much sound can make or break a film.

People on the forum have been talking for years about the filmic look. . . There is definitely a filmic sound. Not just well balanced vocals but subtle undertones. room tones, smooth transitions and, if your not 'dogma'-minded, effects (someone interested in being a foley artist might be fun to have around), music and sound scoring.

Audio is huge (you are after all playing to an Audience).

You are right, bad sound ruins a story.

Sound is an art of it's own. Starting out with good solid tools is a great way to begin, but you have to learn/ know how to use them. Then there is technique as well as a deeper understanding and 'feel' to be cultivated.

I think that it is a valid point that you may want to find a sound man (and for that matter a crew) but I personally want to know everything that I can 'technically' so that I can make smart decisions and not rely too much on others. I also think it ultimately makes me a better collaborator.

That's just my take on it. . . others my have no interest in learning the technical side . . . although even though we call it a technical side it can be utterly creative once you learn and forget the 0's and 1's.
 
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Also try Pluraleyes. I record audio with the camera and with the Zoom not plugged into the camera (standalone) . You drop your audio/video track into your editing software. Then just drop the Zooms audio files in also. Pluraleyes will automatically find and sync the audio up for you. I didn't believe it, then I tried it. Synced everything up perfect from two different cameras and the Zoom. Check it out..click on the MOVIE button on their pagehttp://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html
 
mcgeedigital said:
The BEST audio recorder is the Sound Devices line, including the 722, which is what I just replaced my H4N with.
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I think DEVA, Nagra and Cantor would argue with you on that. SD is ONE of the best would be more accurate.

The Zoom isn't in the same ballpark, but great for the price.
 
WhereDreamsAreBorn said:
When i say good audio, i guess whatever professional level films refer to as good audio. Its just that i have seen a few films, where the audio isn't great, and it is a major let down. If i wnated to shoot something that was viewed in cinemas, or whatever. That quality i guess.

I'm not simply filming stuff just for the internet (or whatever). I would like to show it off to other professionals too.
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The thing is that level is achieved by a small army of professionals with a fortune in equipment. It starts with three or more production sound people and $50K - $100K of equipment and years of experience. Then you move in to post with 10 - 30 experience professionals and a bunch of support people and then Mixers and more support people and millions in equipment and facilities.
Take even a VERY low budget film you will have a mixer and boom op on set. At least three editors but realistically if your on a "normal" schedule you need at minimum. Two FX editors, an ADR editor, a Dialog editor, a Foley editor. Foley artists, Foley recordist/ eng. & Foley stage. Probably an FX recordist. Two Mixers and some support staff, a decent sound library and a couple of assistants.

That's what it takes to hit your goal.

You don't have that kind of $$$ so obviously you are going to have to compromise. The way to do it with an indi budget is to get at least two good experienced people. One for production and one for post. Make sure you schedule very generously for post because that person is going to have to do a LOT of work. Two people for post is MUCH better than one but... Two experience people for production can get you tracks that start as good as the big boys. Post takes between 10 -15 hours per screen minute. Every experienced editor you ad to post divides into that number. If you have a really experienced editor with a lot of super low budget films under their belt they can probably lower the nut to 5-7 hours per minute because they know how to cheat in ways that won't show. But under that it's going to show. Then allow two weeks or more to do the final mix.

The above is for "sound" in the film world music is not "sound" so you probably also need to add a music editor, or some more time to your only editor.

This is why you get a reaction when you want to get a mic and a recorder so you can sound like a "professional" film. It's not the equipment it's the folks using it (well and equipment also). There isn't a cheap box that will hook up to your camera and replicate the small army of professionals that create the films that sound good.

If I had to hire only one sound person I would hire a production person (and I do post 99%). The reason is a lot of times I'm doing triage on micro budget films because the production is so bad. You don't get much creativity out of post if they spend all their time trying to fix production. And it takes someone with a lot of experience (and $$$ tools) to do decent fixing. And you might find a pro who like your film and will do the post at a huge discount. BUT they are not likely to want to if one listen tells them they are into a LOT of boring salvage work that will never sound good enough to put on a reel. I have turned down work that had just awful production.
 
WhereDreamsAreBorn said:
OK guys thanks for the great advice.

I was hoping to capture sound, buy simply having the H4N and a 'shotgun' microphone both attached onto my camera rig, picking up sound of whichever actor(s) is in any given shot.

I guess most of the time, the actors will be reasonable close to the camera, but there could be instances where i am filming them from a long distance, and therefore i imagine the sound quality wouldn't be that good.

And i want to make very high quality films (which of ocurse means high quality sound).

So are you saying there is no real way to get high quality sound without having a specialist soundman always stood as close as possible to the actors. If thats the case, should i forget buying a H4N? Or is there any harm having a separate soundman, and i also use a H4N just as you say for added ambience and stuff?
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Here we go again.....

WhereDreamsAreBorn, I have to kid you a bit because there are many first time posters on the audio board that start out like this. You will get lots of help from the folks here, but they tend to be pretty direct. And it is great to "hear" that you are "hearing" what the folks are suggesting. That doesn't always happen.

Here is one piece of advice I had to learn the hard way. If you are doing anything where you need good audio, being a one man band just doesn't usually work. You might get away with it for a talking head interview or a documentary for which there are lower expectations. Start thinking that at the absolute minimum you will need a camera operator and a sound person. Any production with a real budget will have much more than that. And just as it takes skill to run a cam, it takes skill to capture good audio.

Best Regards,
Grant
 
Whatever device you use to record dialogue, get it AS CLOSE to the sound source as humanly possible. Once you've done that, get closer.
 
PSA1 said:
He said he wanted high quality sound for his film, and from his questions about it he is weak in that department no doubt, and the best way for him to learn is from an experience sound man, I can and everybody else can answered his questions to the T but I guarantee he won't do as good as if he hire a sound man for the job and at the same time learn from him and this is an honest suggestion and not that I'm trying to be an ass.
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By the same reasoning, the OP should hire a DP, Director, and call himself a Producer, and not ask such silly technical questions at all... in fact, be obnoxious and demand to know why the project is going into the shitter, after all the money is gone, having hired 'experts'.
 
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