Guns -blank firing or airsoft?

combatentropy said:
Interesting. So are these the only effects of "blank guns": the recoil, an empty bullet case jumping out, and maybe some smoke at the back? You still have to add a gun flash, it sounds like, in post. I thought that the main reason to use blanks, instead of nothing, was to get a real gun flash out of the barrel. Then again, guns seem to spit out less fire in real life than in movies.

On a related note, I think post-added gun flashes look fake unless you somehow light up the gun and even the actor a little. The light from a real gun flash would light up the gun itself and stuff around it a tad. A dead give-away of a fake flash is that a flash emits from the gun, but nothing around the gun receives any light. Maybe have a light off screen pointed at the gun, which you flash when the actor pulls the trigger. The trick would be timing it just right of course.
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Yes, you still have to add the muzzle flash in post. But using blanks in real guns is extremely dangerous. That's how people die.

I've seen FX software that adds the highlighting on actors and surroundings to coincide with the muzzle flash. It takes work and skill to make it look real, but that's true of anything you do on your film.
 
You could ask these guys what happens with the props they sell, not too expensive either.

http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/BlankGuns.html

Then there is this, which must use guns that can be modified back to full firearms and probably what you want to avoid since licensing is required.

http://dailycaller.com/2013/03/20/guns-camera-action-how-hollywood-gets-their-guns/

Interesting that NY puts more restrictions on how the device functions. The battery powered fakes sound like an interesting idea.
 
I know an armorer and for films with a decent budget you will see real or modified real guns. Depending on the scene he would be firing either real blanks or stage blanks. Stage Blanks are designed for use on stage and the "wadding" desintegrates so that there is not a plug going down range as there is with a normal blank. If there are people down range of the firing then stage blanks are the way to go. Often the accidents happen when either blocking does a surprise change and an actor is down range who wasn't when the shot was set up, or some actor goffing around shoots themselves. Even a stage blank can kill at close range in a vital area. But that is a big budget with a weapons crew and very strict control. And that is why every so often some actor does something they were told not to do and someone gets hurt. The reason to use them, as explained to me, is that nothing else actually looks believable to someone who knows guns. Real guns are LOUD, and heavy and the firing has an impact on the actor. True blank only guns don't have a muzzle flash but more importantly the gas is ported to someplace improper like the side so they don't look right. His recommendation if you don't go with real, which he would NOT recommend unless you have the budget for a full trained weapons crew, is to go airsoft and eliminate the danger. He also recommends so actual firing range practice for the actors so they know what a real gun feels like.
 
roxics said:
We have a large indoor flea market here in the Detroit area that's filled with a ton of different small shops.
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Where? I would love to know. Relocating has cost me my old list of go to places and this sounds like a place I need to know about. You can just email me since I'm not sure there are many in the Detroit area here.
 
Noiz2 said:
I know an armorer and for films with a decent budget you will see real or modified real guns. Depending on the scene he would be firing either real blanks or stage blanks. Stage Blanks are designed for use on stage and the "wadding" desintegrates so that there is not a plug going down range as there is with a normal blank. If there are people down range of the firing then stage blanks are the way to go. Often the accidents happen when either blocking does a surprise change and an actor is down range who wasn't when the shot was set up, or some actor goffing around shoots themselves. Even a stage blank can kill at close range in a vital area. But that is a big budget with a weapons crew and very strict control. And that is why every so often some actor does something they were told not to do and someone gets hurt. The reason to use them, as explained to me, is that nothing else actually looks believable to someone who knows guns. Real guns are LOUD, and heavy and the firing has an impact on the actor. True blank only guns don't have a muzzle flash but more importantly the gas is ported to someplace improper like the side so they don't look right. His recommendation if you don't go with real, which he would NOT recommend unless you have the budget for a full trained weapons crew, is to go airsoft and eliminate the danger. He also recommends so actual firing range practice for the actors so they know what a real gun feels like.
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The thing is, in the two highest profile deaths from using blanks loaded into real guns, it wasn't the wadding that was the problem.

In Brandon Lee's death, the gun had been previously loaded with fake shells -- shells which had no powder, but did have actual slugs on them, so the slugs could be seen when the pistol was shot from the front. They then removed those fake shells and loaded blanks. What they failed to realize was that one of the slugs had come loose from its shell and remained in the chamber. So when the blank round fired, it propelled that slug out of the barrel and into Mr. Lee.

In the case of Jon-Erik Hexum, he placed the barrel of a real gun loaded with blanks against his head and pulled the trigger. The force of the blast coming out the end of the barrel dislodged a portion of Mr. Hexum's skull and drove it into his brain.

Both could have been prevented if guns designed to ONLY shoot blanks had been used.
 
Blank firing guns are good to use as well. As someone noted, the barrels are plugged, they are loud, and eject, much more real and adds better production value. Nothing kills production value more than a plastic gun with CGi flashes.
 
Use airsoft guns for sure. They are the smartest way to go. I know local supplier who sells airsoft guns and other tactical gear that are used on major productions all the time. You can get some pretty realistic airsoft guns for fairly cheap. All of the guns used in this short were airsoft guns https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8tWYtivadk. Most of them are metal and fooled a lot of the actors who were ex military. A couple of them even fooled an Army Combat Specialist who was on a shoot we had. Most of the people who play airsoft are ex military and they play it because it feels like the real thing. You can mod airsoft guns just like real guns, you can shoot them all day without worrying about killing anyone and you don't need a permit/ license to own one.*However don't load them with BB's. They can still take out an eye/lens. And You still have to be careful about who/ where you carry them. You don't want to go running through a neighborhood with a replica AK-47 and get the police called. I live in Idaho where we are pretty relaxed with our gun laws but that wouldn't pass in a major metropolitan area like NY or LA.
 
Use airsoft guns for sure. They are the smartest way to go.
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Here's an entirely different type of horror story about filming with guns. Actor was holding an airsoft gun. For this "crime", he faces 10 YEARS in a New Jersey prison.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ic-faces-10-years-in-prison-for-airsoft-prop/

Ten years in prison. For holding an airsoft.

There are some absolutely insane laws out there. You'd better know what the laws are where you intend to shoot, and if you're in a state or city that's hostile to civilian ownership of guns, there can be some severe consequences. One can assume (and yeah, there's danger there too) that you'd be okay with a strictly non-firing replica, but even then, if you're shooting in a big city that has draconian laws, you might end up in trouble there too. And if what you're doing isn't plainly and clearly obvious to a passing pedestrian or officer, you might end up in a tad of trouble, such as when a Cleveland officer shot to death a 12-year-old kid who was holding a toy gun.

Talk to your local film commission. Ask them first. They're likely to know whether you're going to face issues with the law related to using a replica, blank-firing, toy or airsoft "firearm".
 
Barry_Green said:
Here's an entirely different type of horror story about filming with guns. Actor was holding an airsoft gun. For this "crime", he faces 10 YEARS in a New Jersey prison.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ic-faces-10-years-in-prison-for-airsoft-prop/

Ten years in prison. For holding an airsoft.

There are some absolutely insane laws out there. You'd better know what the laws are where you intend to shoot, and if you're in a state or city that's hostile to civilian ownership of guns, there can be some severe consequences. One can assume (and yeah, there's danger there too) that you'd be okay with a strictly non-firing replica, but even then, if you're shooting in a big city that has draconian laws, you might end up in trouble there too. And if what you're doing isn't plainly and clearly obvious to a passing pedestrian or officer, you might end up in a tad of trouble, such as when a Cleveland officer shot to death a 12-year-old kid who was holding a toy gun.

Talk to your local film commission. Ask them first. They're likely to know whether you're going to face issues with the law related to using a replica, blank-firing, toy or airsoft "firearm".
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Oh the joys of working for free on a no budget indie film where there is no insurance and no permits, but great IMDB credit. :cry:
 
I would always just inform the local authorities in your area if you are filming with fake guns of any kind. Even if you don't have a permit just talk to them and talk to the people around you( neighbors, passers-by) really anyone who isn't apart of the production should know what you are doing so that the worst isn't assumed and so that horrible accidents don't happen.
 
estarkey7 said:
NO WAY USE A BLANK FIRING GUN!!!
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Right. Not even stage blanks. Not just for safety, but a filmed muzzle flash either from bullets or standard blanks looks unrealistic if you catch it at all. Back when..., you didn't have easy VFX and you could (and probably still can) buy slow burn blanks, or just as likely an armorer would load the blanks with their own powder formula. Definitely not suggesting you try this at home, besides safety, slow burns dirty your barrel. As for gun flash, just lighten the frame slightly in post. It's over before anyone notices there's no effect on the shadows.
 
Blank-firing guns -- that is, guns that are designed to shoot ONLY blanks -- won't produce any kind of muzzle flash at all, because the barrel is solid so nothing can exit through the muzzle. They typically have a vent hole in the top of the barrel, and the gases go out through that. It's still conceivable that mishandling could cause injury, however -- though death is unlikely. Still, for the safety of your cast, NEVER use ANY gun that is loaded with ANY kind of cartridge, whether or not it's a blank. You can use an UNLOADED blank pistol and add the muzzle flash and sound in post. Or use an Airsoft replica gun.

REAL guns that have been LOADED with blanks, on the other hand, are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS and have cost people their lives. NEVER use a REAL gun loaded with blanks. In fact, never have a REAL gun on the set at all. There's no good reason to risk the lives and safety of your cast and crew by having a real gun anywhere near a film set.
 
Even if a blank-firing gun was used so that no hot gasses were escaping out the front of the gun, endangering human being, the extremely loud noise would still be emanating from the gun. Used in any proximity to a person's head, the percussive wave can cause serious and permanent hearing loss. Because the sound can be added and/or augmented in post, there is really no excuse for such explosive charges going on on set.
 
estarkey7 said:
NO WAY USE A BLANK FIRING GUN!!! Use a blowback BB Gun and special effects. At about 0:50 in this trailer, I used this technique to get realistic effects without going to jail! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRyUMBm3nF8
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Definitely safe, but some viewers might notice the absence of slide action or shell ejection, which could pull them out of the story. If you shoot slowmotion, slide action and shell ejection (or their absence) are much more noticeable.

In reply to the original post, I find most filmmakers prefer to use blank firing guns where possible. You get slide action and shell ejection in camera. You get natural lighting effects (esp at night) from muzzle flashes in-camera. The performers have sound to react to, and generally perform more believably (for instance actors often "over act" gun recoil if there's no blank. VFX muzzle flashes tend to be used if their are safety concerns (proximity for example), noise restrictions on location, budget restrictions etc.
 
Mitch Gross said:
Even if a blank-firing gun was used so that no hot gasses were escaping out the front of the gun, endangering human being, the extremely loud noise would still be emanating from the gun. Used in any proximity to a person's head, the percussive wave can cause serious and permanent hearing loss. Because the sound can be added and/or augmented in post, there is really no excuse for such explosive charges going on on set.
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That's true. Which is why I said if you use a blank-firing gun, use it UNLOADED and add sound and muzzle flash in post.
 
novicemonk said:
Definitely safe, but some viewers might notice the absence of slide action or shell ejection, which could pull them out of the story. If you shoot slowmotion, slide action and shell ejection (or their absence) are much more noticeable.

In reply to the original post, I find most filmmakers prefer to use blank firing guns where possible. You get slide action and shell ejection in camera. You get natural lighting effects (esp at night) from muzzle flashes in-camera. The performers have sound to react to, and generally perform more believably (for instance actors often "over act" gun recoil if there's no blank. VFX muzzle flashes tend to be used if their are safety concerns (proximity for example), noise restrictions on location, budget restrictions etc.
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What you're talking about is using REAL guns loaded with blanks. That's what killed Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum. DO NOT do that!

Guns made strictly for firing blanks will NOT have a muzzle flash. The barrels are solid, so NOTHING will exit from the muzzle -- not fire, not smoke, not unicorns.

Are your 'natural lighting effects' and sound to react to REALLY worth risking the LIVES of the people in your cast and crew?

Good actors know how to act and react. And they will feel a LOT safer if there are NO real guns on the set.
 
rustyrehl said:
I would always just inform the local authorities in your area if you are filming with fake guns of any kind. Even if you don't have a permit just talk to them and talk to the people around you( neighbors, passers-by) really anyone who isn't apart of the production should know what you are doing so that the worst isn't assumed and so that horrible accidents don't happen.
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That is perfect advice! When I did my shooting scene, I went to every single neighbor on the street and explained to them I was shooting a small movie scene. My actors only had possession of the blow back bb guns seconds before action was called, and crew quickly collected them right after cut. No need in someone actually thinking that what they see going on is the real deal, and if you use blank firing guns, that is exactly what may happen!

Nothing like your low budget film getting your actors and crew shot up by a swat team!!
 
The dangers all mentioned here are darn real.

However, there have been some pretty convincing blank guns made specifically for filming recently. (I don't have links, but they should be easy to search down. Probably even in this thread.)

The slight recoil and the shell case ejection are all VERY convincing once you add a simple muzzle flash and bigger SFX in post. Nothing comes out the front.
Any jolt of the user's hand will usually appear as recoil in the context of the scene. It doesn't HAVE to be the rearward recoil of the real thing.

They're not super cheap, but if you're doing mare than one scene with a lot of focus on the weapon, then they can be quite worth the price.
 
David W. Richardson said:
What you're talking about is using REAL guns loaded with blanks. That's what killed Brandon Lee and Jon-Erik Hexum. DO NOT do that!

Guns made strictly for firing blanks will NOT have a muzzle flash. The barrels are solid, so NOTHING will exit from the muzzle -- not fire, not smoke, not unicorns.
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David, by "blank-firing" - I meant guns firing blanks. Maybe not my best use of language. I don't know why you mention unicorns. Are you being sarcastic or patronising? If, yes, please don't.


David W. Richardson said:
Are your 'natural lighting effects' and sound to react to REALLY worth risking the LIVES of the people in your cast and crew?

Good actors know how to act and react. And they will feel a LOT safer if there are NO real guns on the set.
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I'm a professional stunt performer and coordinator, with quite a bit of experience in this area ( www.imdb.com/name/nm0694706 ) , and take safety very seriously.
Perhaps I should have mentioned work of the kind I was describing must be overseen by competent and qualified armorers (maybe I thought that was obvious).

The deaths you mentioned were at least partly due to not following what are now standard industry protocols.

What should be obvious is that of course I don't believe in " risking the LIVES of the people in your cast and crew" for natural lighting effects, sound and better performances. I was merely addressing possible shortcomings with the youtube clip, and addressing why, in this day of VFX and airsoft, some filmmakers choose to not go down that road.

The first post in this thread asked "Are most bigger productions today still using blank firing guns or have most switched to airsoft type guns?". Most big productions these days do use blank firing guns (and usually a combination of blank firing & VFX). I was trying to shine light on why.

With talk of unicorns and CAPITAL LETTERS, I feel a little peeved. Been coming here on and off for 10+ years. Seem to remember exchanges being friendlier in the past.
 
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