Great Opportunity! Multi Cam Live Concert Shoot..NEED ALOT OF HELP

D

D.Films

New member
Bear with me, this is a little long winded, but I assure you it's important enough to justify.

I want to go ahead and apologize for the newbie questions I'll be asking. I love this site and I know it's the place to come for some answers.

A very good friend of mine is an excellent singer-songwriter who just signed to a small label. Not only is he a talented musician but he's also a hard working member of the United States Millitary:happy:. He's on a two week leave from his third tour of Iraq and he has a few shows scheduled. He spoke to the label on my behalf, showed them some of my music videos and they've offered me a chance to film the one and only show with the entire band and all who worked on the album in the studio. The only bad news is that the show is on SATURDAY and I just found out today.

Now here comes the questions.....(thanks in advance)

I have a DVX 100a...I would like to do a 3 camera shoot...with my DVX at the back of the venue for the wide shot. I would have to borrow/rent/or buy the remaining cameras.

1. What cameras should I aim for?
2. Would it have to be another DVX so the footage matches?
3. Would it be better to shoot in Squeeze?
4. If I shoot in 24pa, and I end up using a different camera...is that a prob in
matching?

Audio ?'s
1. Would it be okay just to run an XLR from the board straight to my DVX which will be setup right beside the house sound guy?

thanks so much if you read all of this. this could be very important for me to continue to do this type of thing more consistently..this is what I pray to do everyday and more importantly, helping a great friend as well.
 
I can help with some of these I don't know a ton about the dvx but I d have experience in live production. The majority of live videos are shot at either 30 or 60 although if you did want to shoot at 24 then matching footage shouldn't be too much of an issue.

Audio, especially in a concert video, is extremely important. If at all possible getting a raw feed from the mics is preferable. That way you can mic the audio in post. Most FOH engineers create mixes that sound good in a live venue but don't translate well to video. Also depending on the venue the mix engineer the mix may just be terrible. Also to create a good mix you are going to want to have a few audience mics placed at the front of the venue to get nice applause and crowd sounds. Depending on the size ofthe venue you are either going to want shotguns for a larger venue or pencil condensers or small diaphragm condensers for a smaller or more intimate crowd. When I do live work I rent an HD24 and use a snake to take the insert from every channel on the board. If you are near any major city there is defiantly a shop that you can rent one from. Also when I record to the HD24 I take a feed from the board to my primary camera so that I have a back-up and I can sync the audio and video easier in post.

If you are not able to record individual mics then you can take a feed from the board but you need to constantly monitor it with a quality pair of head phones. Also if you do get 2 additional cameras you could set each of them up with an external mic that you could point at the audience and use as an audience mic. Although I warn you that audio is crucial to a good concert video. Concerts are very different than music videos and in concerts the audio s your responsibility. If you have anymore audio questions ask them and I will see what I can do.
 
Thanks so much, David!!!

It's a very small venue and after reading your answer, I'll proably be going the route of running the board mix to my camera and letting my other cameras pick up the ambient sound.

I'm sure I'll have a few more ? when I get some more time.

thanks again
 
David335 has given you excellent advice. I would only add that if you are only using the house mix, you are at the mercy of the house mixer who is NOT mixing for your recording. He is mixing for the FOH speakers and likely doesn't have much bandwidth left to worry about your mix.

Remember also that depending on what the instrumentation is, the house mix is NOT an appropriate recording mix as there may be some sound sources that are not reinforced at all, which means that they are not recorded, either. In some cases this won't make any significant difference. In other circumstances this will render the recording useless. Depends on what the sound sources are and how they are miked.

I would certainly not venture into exotic things like 24FPS unless you are very familiar with your camera AND you can run 24 on all the other cameras. Editing together different frame rates and syncing to a separate audio track is just asking for trouble. Disclaimer: The lure of 24FPS escapes me completely.

Getting tracks of the ambient sound is also very important. You can probably get away with using the on-camera mics on the other camera(s) to pick up the audience reaction, etc. Remember that on-camera mics aren't good for much else than collecting ambient noises.

Of course, the ideal would be to get identical make/model cameras all around. But if that isn't possible, I would at least try to keep it in the "family". All Pannasonic or all Sony, etc. It makes it easier to color match. Panny and Sony have slightly different concepts of colorimetry. I prefer Sony myself.

Good luck. Sounds like great fun. You might end up with something great. :-)
 
I've done this many times before and can tell you some of my experience

3 camcorders is the absolute minimum! The more cameras, the better. Try to get the same camcorders and spend some time adjusting the settings of all cameras to the exact same levels. This will make matching footage in post much easier.

Sound wise, I'd suggest that you get a portable audio recorder (like a Zoom H4n) and record the stereo output from the board. This will not be a great mix, but maybe that's all you have available. Ask the sound guy if they record, too. Usually, they record all tracks individually and my experience is that the sound guys are super helpful and might give you the separate tracks later if you give them credit.

Don't record audio straight into your camera: The pres on your camcorder are of inferior quality. The Zoom or some other small recorder will give you a cleaner sound. Just set the Zoom to "auto level", press record and let it run. Super simple, and a 2Gb card can hold up to 5 hours at 48/16. You will be busy filming, so ask some of the guys at the board if they can take care of the audi recording. They should know what they are doing and you have no time anyway.

Get (rent, borrow) some GREAT shotgun mics and put one shotgun on each of the cameras. These audio tracks are the only way you can sync your video with the sound later. Also, I have seen many times that these shotgun mics are absolute life savers when something gets wrong with the mixing board. For example, I recently did a multi-camera live concert video. During the performance, the battery inside the condensor microphone on the bass drum died! So we had NO bass drum on the sound, just some cracks, hisses & noises -- disaster!! However, we could equalize and compress the sound of the shotgun mic from the camcorder that was closest to the drum, isolate the drum and put it into the mix. The final audio sounds great!

You also need to talk to the other camera operators and coordinate your shots. Example: When a guitar player starts a solo, you don't want all cameras to pan to the guitar player at the same time. There might be people walking in front of the camera, sometimes there's people walking in front of ALL camera at the same time! I therefore always have a camcorder behind the drummer with a wide angle pointing above the band into the audience that is my "safety net" if something goes wrong with the other cameras simultaneously (which happens quite a lot). Talk to the other cam operators how you pan around. I usually have one camera right in front of the band, real close, that does all the close-up shots, and gently move the camera at ALL times. The other cameras constantly pan & zoom around, too, but at a much slower speed. Try to get a lot of gentle movement in all your cameras (except the safety camera behind the drummer that I just switch on let run the entire night) to create some nice dynamics that goes well with the music.

Also, strategically place all camcorders so they get the best angles without being in the view of the other cameras. Little things can make a big difference as well: the guy who mans the camera closest to the stage should not wear a watch, for example, and dark cloths. Might sound silly, but it is so distracting if you see a spotlight constantly reflecting and bouncing off on the glass of the wristwatch into the other cameras.

Talk to the band!! Know when the important solos are. What I always do is discuss with them which songs are important to have on the DVD. That's the songs where everyone from the film crew needs to be on high alert. My experience is also that the first songs are usually the best because the band is so excited to be on stage and their energy level is highest. After the second or third set, the musicians tend to wear out and the performance get sluggish. So have the band put their most important songs early into the first set -- not at the end.

Just think every single detail through. There is a million things that can go wrong with such a complex setup, the results can be beautiful.

Good luck and report back how it went!
 
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Some other things:

Go to the venue a day or two before, check out the crowd, the lights, how the stage and background looks like. Find the best positions for the cameras.

Then on the night of the gig, come super-early (2-3 hours before) and take your time setting everything up and dial it in. Check out the light and make or ask for adjustments. Go on stage and feel free to move things around. You don't want a big shiny water bottle on top of the piano, put it on the ground, and you don't want a white towel hang from a music stand. When the first audience member enters the venue, everything needs to be in place -- no more adjusting tripods and cables, the chances that someone might get hurt is too big. Chances are that when the venue is full of people, you won't even be able to get a replacement battery or tapes for your camera. Have everything ready at your position. Get tiny flashlights to make adjustments when the lights in the venue go down.

I disagree a little with what has been said before that the sound is the single most important thing. I think the LOOK is the single most important thing for a music video, and some minor mistakes on the sound are usually forgiven and not being noticed by people who watch a live music DVD.

Did you watch "Shine a Light" by Scorsese? In my opinion, that's the mother of all live music DVDs. Its spectacular when you watch it, but when you listen to the CD alone, the sound is actually disappointing -- something nobody will notice while watching the DVD because there are so many things going on all the time.

Have fun!
 
thanks alot, Richard. Luckily all of my cameras are going to be Panasonic. 2 DVX100A and a small 3 chip Panny. I appreciate all the advice.

Thanks to you too, Giganova, I really appreciate all the little tips that Im sure I would've forgotten. I'm going with a 3 camera shoot and I'll let you know how it goes.

thanks again!!!!
 
Giganova said:
Sound wise, I'd suggest that you get a portable audio recorder (like a Zoom H4n) and record the stereo output from the board. This will not be a great mix, but maybe that's all you have available. Ask the sound guy if they record, too. Usually, they record all tracks individually and my experience is that the sound guys are super helpful and might give you the separate tracks later if you give them credit.
Click to expand...

Hey guys,
I'm getting ready to do a live concert shoot myself, and trying to figure out the best way to do audio. Do you think it's best to run the h4n from the board, or put it somewhere in the audience?
- Tom
 
Tom Knight said:
Hey guys,
I'm getting ready to do a live concert shoot myself, and trying to figure out the best way to do audio. Do you think it's best to run the h4n from the board, or put it somewhere in the audience?
- Tom
Click to expand...

It honestly depends on the budget. If you're shooting for free/low pay then a board feed of the main mix should be OK. Not great/ideal but OK if the client wants ideal see below. Sometimes I'll blend my on-camera mic with the board feed, compensating for the delay.

If there's a decent budget, as someone wrote earlier rent one of these bad boys - http://www.alesis.com/hd24 . Take the inserts from each track into that recorder and then from the outputs they go back into the board. Or I think it supports TRS cables so you only need to plug those into the inputs. I'm not sure I never worked with an HD24 before so you'd have to find out for yourself ;-) Put this before any effects so that everything on the tracks is "dry". Then you just mix the audio so it sounds good "on tape" vs. how the venue mixing guy would make it sound good through the house speakers.
 
Going off of the audio, there are many things to consider.. My most recent shoot was in a large amphitheater made entirely out of concrete... Had a stereo feed from the board go directly to the rear HVX, but then in post, the feed was completely gated and sounded like crap. Then I thought combining the rear backup shotgun I had recording to another camera would work well if I lined it up in FCP. Had to plural eyes it because of the echo, keep that in mind if recording in a large venue that sound has to travel too...
 
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