Good way to learn tips about focal perception?

[Snapper123]

Hey guys, I keep finding that one of the biggest confusions I can think of when anticipating shooting a scene is trying to figure out which focal length to use for a specific shot. For ease, I want to stick with the prime range focal lengths - 18, 24, 25, 55, 75, ect ect, but even then, the range is a hard choice for perception of the shot. Perception is something that's really, really important to me, I truly do picture every single shot in advance and each shot has a very specific character and perception to it - I think of shots that truly do use all the scopes of the focal lengths. But the thing is, I've never had a true ability to automatically know which focal length is really which, or which would be required for the constrained on-location area, it's just that I've always set up my films in my mind with more of a "I've watched alot of movies." type of sense lol.

So what I want to ask, is are there any websites that really teach and show examples of focal length perceptions and how to use them to get the scene you're trying for? I found one great website that both had an example of a focal test where the photographer stood still the entire time, through 16mm-300mm I think, and then the other test where he compensated his stance to be exactly the same photo each time, but with a different perception. It was an amazing find! But the website didn't really have any advice at all, so I guess I'm looking for advice along the lines of say, focal lengths you shouldn't use for faces, or focal lengths that make shots look cinematic, and then just the regular tips about anything to do with perception. Thanks!

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

So what I want to ask, is are there any websites that really teach and show examples of focal length perceptions and how to use them to get the scene you're trying for?

I don't have any specific websites to answer this exact question... But essentially you are asking about Angle of View/Field of View of a 'lens'.

However, this must always be conditioned by what film/sensor is being used, and so, you need to decide on what camera you are using,t then that will determine the AOV/FOV of the lens.

Here's a chart that depicts the various sizes of sensors relating to Super-35mm movie film format.

http://www.abelcine.com/articles/images/pdf/35mm%20digital%20sensors%20chart_final.pdf


Here is a Panavision page that has a FOV calculator for various film types. However it only has a 'crop' factor of 1.43 for DSLR's, if you are using one of those with that crop factor, all is good. If you are not... the calculator will just give you a 'sense' of what the FOV may be.

http://www.panavision.co.nz/main/kbase/reference/calcFOVform.asp

The alternative, is, especially with the popular VDSLR's is to 'live with your camera'... take it everywhere, and point it at everything, with perhaps a zoom lens, and change the zoom to various focal lengths and 'learn' to see what the effect is..

 

[Svart]

Hey OP can you post the links to those sites?

One of the things I've picked up over the years is that using a wide lens close to the talent makes them feel like they are further away from the background. Using a tele lens from further away, while keeping the talent the same size, makes the talent seem more like part of the background. Foreshortening I believe they call it.

Also, make sure you combine your ND filters and/or lighting to enable you to use mid-range F/T stops. You can change your F/T stops to change the depth of field as well which will make things feel more like being part of the background or standing out from the background.

 

[Rick Burnett]

Hey OP can you post the links to those sites?

One of the things I've picked up over the years is that using a wide lens close to the talent makes them feel like they are further away from the background. Using a tele lens from further away, while keeping the talent the same size, makes the talent seem more like part of the background. Foreshortening I believe they call it.

Also, make sure you combine your ND filters and/or lighting to enable you to use mid-range F/T stops. You can change your F/T stops to change the depth of field as well which will make things feel more like being part of the background or standing out from the background.

Yeah, I'd like to see those original sites as well!

I've spent a LOT of time working on this same question in a lot of the shots I do. One of the things I have studied is movies and the feelings I get between wide and tele lenses. Also, I've spent some time thinking of those lenses in both near and far focal applications.

Some of the books I have also go over a lot of this, especially Cinematography by Blain Brown.

I use 11mm-16mm 30mm 50mm and 85mm lenses. The reason I think it is hard to give you a chart is because it is SO dependent on how close your talent is to the lenses as well.

For 11mm-16mm I use this for REALLY tight locations and deal with a little of the way the FoV looks at 11mm when I just cannot remove a wall or something. I also like to use this for shots looking up or looking down at the talent. Mostly NEVER for dialog or action if can be helped. I will also use it for shots where the talent is far away as well.

30mm is my go to lens for almost everything dialog related. I like the separation and the feel it gives, but it is also a little less formal I feel. Meaning, if it is a meeting between people, I call it our mid intimate lens. We do some action with this, but it gets us a little closer than we want. This is what I would consider a wide action shot. (we do a lot of kungfu).

50mm is what we use for closer conversations, like two lovers talking where we want to take them a little more out of the environment and make it just about them. Given we use a F1.4 lens, we can really blow out the background. We use this for a lot of macro type shots as well where we are focusing on say a body part where we want even less of the background. I'd say we still use the 30mm more, but again when we want to really separate whatever we are filming this lens does nice. Also, if you need to get a little away from the talent, like for action scenes, this allows you to get a little further away and still get the same FoV as the 30, and can help sometimes as with the 30 we tend to get in a little too close sometimes.

85mm is what we use to flatten action. Makes things more realistic in terms of fighting. In addition, on tracking like moving cars or people walking, it gives a very filmic look to us. I call it our action and tracking lens.

100mm to 300mm which we do have but ALWAYS have to lock down is great for the spying on lens Like someone in an alley talking on a phone. It's the intimate from a distance.

Obviously all this is subjective! But what we do. Also, changing your F-stop on all the lens completely changes the feel as well, but this is just a general guideline we've come up with shooting on the 7D over the last year. Maybe useful, maybe not.

One thing I cannot stress enough is that I learn a lot from watching films and just knowing what scenes some times relate to mine, you eventually get a good feel for what lens they might be using (taking into consideration sensor size of course).

 

[Noel Evans]

The alternative, is, especially with the popular VDSLR's is to 'live with your camera'... take it everywhere, and point it at everything, with perhaps a zoom lens, and change the zoom to various focal lengths and 'learn' to see what the effect is..

This is especially good in helping you to develop your own style.

The most important factor for me when choosing a lens is the question, Whats driving this image? And when talking cinematography, that pertains to not only lens choice, but also composition and lighting. Choose your style.

 

[pianoboy]

I think the best way to learn about this is to take portraits.

Basically, a wide angle lens exaggerates everything, so noses, chins, etc. will look bigger, and things farther away will look smaller.

A telephoto compresses everything, so noses, chins, etc. are more proportional on faces, which is why photographers like to use longer lenses to shoot beauty shots. They are much more flattering.

Also, if you have a crowd of people, shoot it from close up with a wide angle and the people in front will look larger. Shoot it from far away with a telephoto and they'll all look the same size.

It's the same way our eyes work... have a friend stand really close to you with his hand held out to your face. The hand will look huge and his head will look small. Now back far, far away from him, and his hand will be proportional to his head.

One interesting thing I read was about Wes Anderson, for Rushmore (and basically all of his films). He used a 40mm anamorphic (20mm spherical equivalent) for most of the shots, because he liked the way the wide lens distorted facial features, etc. However, for women, that isn't flattering, so they used longer lenses for female closeups.

So you just basically pick the lens for the look you want, unless there is some other limiting factor like close quarters, or if you're shooting lions or something.