good audio mix workflow for FCE4?

[kookooframe]

I'm a bit of a newbie, technically slow though of course a whiz creatively. I'm upgrading to FCE4 tonite. After that I've got another $100 I can spend on audio software to help mix my productions when finished. I know FCE4 can do some things to enhance the audio, but if by chance I wanted to export the audio from FCE4 to an audio application, I was wondering about two things:

1) what would be the best audio application in the $100 range for me to do this?

2) what would be the workflow? specifically, how would I export the sound to another application, work on it, and then bring it back so it would synch up?

I have a Mac G5 2.2ghz just bought a Canon XH A1 I'd probably be working in high def at 24F I'm a director actor musician just completed my first independent feature, edited believe it or not on Pinnacle 9.4

 

[DaveD]

Soundtrack- The audio part of the final cut suite is completely underrated because audition is such a powerhouse. I don't know how much it is separately, I bought my FCP stuff in studio 2. It's in the same ballpark as audition, and will probably come in a package with FCE if you like. Another program I've heard about but have never tried is Audacity. I think it's free and it's what many non-film kids use to edit audio.

Exporting and importing to keep in sync is easy. Finish your cut with the audio as is, then simply export as a full quality WAV. Pull it into whatever other program you're using and do what you need to to it. If you've ever worked in radio, it'll be tempting to delete sections of silence. Clearly, that would @#$! up your synch, so don't. To the same effect if you want to ad anything, do so on a multi track set up on another track or over the current audio. When you're done, just export as a AIF or WAV and pull it back into final cut. Lay it down at the very beginning of the timeline. Your synch should be fine.

 

[kookooframe]

Thanks, Dave. That allays some of my fears about getting out of synch. I checked out Soundtrack and heard a lot of good things about it (too bad FCE 4 does not have it -- FCE 3 did). Yes, Audacity is free. I tried that too -- it looks simple but a bit of a learning curve for me! I think I can use that until I get the $ for Soundtrack or Audition.

I wonder if you could answer another question that always puzzles me -- reference level dB. If a reference level for an application is set at -12db or -20db is that what your sound clips come in at? In other words, is that the level for the rubber band on the sound tracks, after which you can tweak it up or down to your liking? My biggest problem working with these low-end programs always seems to be getting enough volume, though of course you don't want to go over (or in most cases, even near, 0dB.) Am I correct? And if so, would I be better off working with a reference level at -20dB in my projects? And on my camera?

 

[Noiz2]

STP is OK and is very familiar feeling to folks who know FCP/ FCE. I thought is was still in the package? Maybe not. What DaveD recommended is what a lot of low budget folks do. From an audio post perspective it sort of cut's you off at the knees. If you just trying to do a little level adjustment or add some music then fine but if your just sending a stereo full mix into post I would say you probably better off doing it all in FCP/FCE. You have enough tracks and while it's a bit clunky you have most of the controls.
The reason why it's a nightmare for sound post is that one has almost no ability to fix anything. Your tracks are "mixed" so one can't do much of anything with them. Picture edits often don't split edit as much as they should and most picture editors have really bad sound systems and are listening in noisy environments that are not at all tuned for sound. So they miss a lot of stuff. If you send a stereo mix of your tracks most of those missed things can't be fixed. The best by far way to send your tracks to post is by OMF or AAF. Unfortunately I don't think that's an option in FCE. THe latest FCP has an "send to" STP that works as well if your posting in STP. If that is an option in the new FCE then I would push you to use STP and do a send to. In either case you end up with flexibility in post to fix all the stuff that got missed in the picture edit and layer in BG's and music etc.

---
After looking at the Apple site I doubt you can "send to" since you can't get your hands on a version of STP that might being sent to. So I would stay inside FCE.
I do sound post and if you wanted to send me the project I would want you to "break out" your tracks and put handles on all the clips, a real pain in the but. Of course if you have a bunch of $$ I'd take the stereo and do what I could ;~).

 

[Noiz2]

Oh forgot your second question.

Films are mixed in calibrated rooms by ear. Video for broadcast often has to hit specific numbers for peak average and a new thing that Dolby makes that measures a whole shows "nasty sound" level (for lack of a better description.
Most broadcast standards have your calibration point at -20 and your max peak at -10 dBfs. In theory most of your sound should average around -20, dialog would average a bit hotter probably.
You can't make any loudness assessments unless your listening to a calibrated system. It's not rocket science. Basically you you send a -20 db pink noise signal out each speaker in turn and adjust the volume so that each speaker (this is a stereo system I'm talking about, surround gets a little more complicated) is putting out 85dB SPL-C. You can get a SPL meeter at radio shack that is good enough to get by. If your speakers are close to you you would drop that to 82dB SPL-C.

If you monitor at that level -20 won't sound quiet.

 

[kookooframe]

Thanks Noiz for taking the time to reply at length. What a great resource this forum is! For a guy who used to edit full-length super 8 movies "synched" to a cassette tape recorder, you can see how today's technology is like heaven for me. (Or sometimes hell!)

Yeah I guess it might be best overall just to stay in FCE with the audio until I have something like Soundtrack or Audition to run it through. I will keep you in mind if I ever get stymied and need a pro to attack the problem! Thanks also for explaining about reference level -- it's fascinating to me, because it always seems to me the sound on TV (except for local access, for which I work) is always so dependable and never "peaky." I guess -20dB is why. Though it still feels when I make a production that the sound is low if I set a reference level as low as -20db -- that is, I have to turn my viewing system way up when I'm watching a DVD of my stuff, compared to the other shows that might run through that system, on other channels or other Hollywood DVDs or whatever.