rob norton
Veteran
Not to be confused with the GP2024 megathread, which is about a handheld gimbal rig in the mirrorless/micro cine cam space, I believe this topic is different enough for its own thread.
Since diving into the gimbal life, my stance has been that unless the image is really worth fighting for, or you're operating for someone else at a more traditional film crew level, it's better to just take the IQ hit and use a rig that truly allows handheld operation without problematic amounts of fatigue (very small camera package), with no supporting rigs like easyrig/ready rig, antigravity cam, steadicam arm/vest etc.
However, with a limited opportunity described below, I believe an additional support rig is warranted, which is the whole point of the thread.
I have a Red V-Raptor [X] for a two month passion project. I'd like to use it with a gimbal. Like always, this isn't a steadicam vs gimbal thing, if this were a more established project then I'd work with a Steadicam Operator the whole time. The goal is to avoid renting a large gimbal, but I still need to figure out the supporting rig to hold the gimbal.
I've got a few pieces on their way, final weight TBC, but I'll end up with a camera package on the gimbal, which will be 500g short of its capacity of 4.5kg/9.9lbs. I'm under no illusion that the Rs4 Pro (attn: @CharlesPapert, the prosumer line!) is better than a Movi Pro or Ronin 2 in terms of stability. I've said before the Rs4 pro smoothness is just OK. But, it should be a good enough starting point to then let DaVinci Resolve finish the rest of the effect, depending on the shot. I'm not after absolute smoothness, I'll also be handholding the camera while walking too, but I'd like a smoother than handheld option.
While the gimbal itself is under capacity, this is excluding the weight of the gimbal, monitor, gold mount battery, handles etc. There's no way I can handhold the above RED gimbal set up and here's where I'd like to run an idea to the forum.
We've discussed this before but just reiterating:
Antigravity cam/Steadicam - very cool, excellent results, but too expensive/likely impossible to rent
EasyRig - excellent for panning, awful max height
Check the shot at 00:34, that's the maximum height! I don't know why people pretend this is acceptable. Think about how hard we work to eliminate the double chin effect, often at the expense of a more interesting background, now with gimbals it's all sky and people don't look their best.
ReadyRig - I hate how wide it is, and two mounting points means you're fighting to pan. But it allows for chest and above shots.
@Grug mentioned this in the 2024 thread, but this is where blkbrd (blackbird) mantis comes in - https://blkbrd.film/, which makes panning with the ready rig less of an arm wrestle. It's not free flowing like an easyrig pan but the range is definitely increased. See 11:47 (mantis) and 15:00 (stock ready rig) for the difference in pan range between the two
The bungee system looks fantastic in terms of making the easyrig and ready rigs what they should be, but because the Mantis design is so simple and effective, you're really just using the easy rig and ready rigs to provide mounting points. There's obviously more complexity with the ready rig arms being able to adjust, which is closer to having two products work hand in hand. For the easyrig, the very expensive vario 5 simply provides a way to properly position the mantis arm - most of the tech is thrown away. By thrown away, I mean the vest/waist straps are solid, but the majority of what you're paying for is in the overhead arm. If an operator uses the rig for handheld in addition to gimbal work that's fine, but for a gimbal only project, to only be providing the mantis a mount, potentially feels like money not well spent.
So, why not use something like:
- external frame backpack
- vertical speed rail along the backpack and continuing above head, horizontal speed rail via a 90 degree connector
- blkbrd mantis dual or quad tube, connected to speed rail via their speed rail adapter
- easyrig easy tilt
You'd end up with a rig that freely pans and tilts, while choosing your height via appropriate vertical speed rail. I'm just thinking that a 1+ month rental of either easyrig vario 5 with G2 or G3 stabil arm, or ready rig with mantis, vs. cobbling together the speed rail back pack and buying a blkbrd mantis dual or quad tube, the DIY might win out this time. I'm always careful with DIY but this is a hybrid DIY where you're giving the mantis tech a better starting point than any (I think) off the shelf options. I'm aware of height restrictions of moving through doors etc that this custom rig would be guilty of, but just wondering if anyone has any initial thoughts.
With my current rs4 pro gimbal rig, to attach to ready rig, I would need to provide vertical tube in the same way most movi pro or ronin 2 rings allow for a mount. This means adding lightweight tube horizontally to more closely match the width of the ring, as well as a couple inches of vertical tubing. The monster ring width was one of the major goals I was avoiding in my own build (!), although it'd be worth it in this case to comply with the support rig.
Also, is speed rail in line with the neck a safety concern? If yes, maybe it's a speed rail pair goal post on the backpack side, before extending horizontally as a single rail.
Since diving into the gimbal life, my stance has been that unless the image is really worth fighting for, or you're operating for someone else at a more traditional film crew level, it's better to just take the IQ hit and use a rig that truly allows handheld operation without problematic amounts of fatigue (very small camera package), with no supporting rigs like easyrig/ready rig, antigravity cam, steadicam arm/vest etc.
However, with a limited opportunity described below, I believe an additional support rig is warranted, which is the whole point of the thread.
I have a Red V-Raptor [X] for a two month passion project. I'd like to use it with a gimbal. Like always, this isn't a steadicam vs gimbal thing, if this were a more established project then I'd work with a Steadicam Operator the whole time. The goal is to avoid renting a large gimbal, but I still need to figure out the supporting rig to hold the gimbal.
I've got a few pieces on their way, final weight TBC, but I'll end up with a camera package on the gimbal, which will be 500g short of its capacity of 4.5kg/9.9lbs. I'm under no illusion that the Rs4 Pro (attn: @CharlesPapert, the prosumer line!) is better than a Movi Pro or Ronin 2 in terms of stability. I've said before the Rs4 pro smoothness is just OK. But, it should be a good enough starting point to then let DaVinci Resolve finish the rest of the effect, depending on the shot. I'm not after absolute smoothness, I'll also be handholding the camera while walking too, but I'd like a smoother than handheld option.
While the gimbal itself is under capacity, this is excluding the weight of the gimbal, monitor, gold mount battery, handles etc. There's no way I can handhold the above RED gimbal set up and here's where I'd like to run an idea to the forum.
We've discussed this before but just reiterating:
Antigravity cam/Steadicam - very cool, excellent results, but too expensive/likely impossible to rent
EasyRig - excellent for panning, awful max height
Check the shot at 00:34, that's the maximum height! I don't know why people pretend this is acceptable. Think about how hard we work to eliminate the double chin effect, often at the expense of a more interesting background, now with gimbals it's all sky and people don't look their best.
ReadyRig - I hate how wide it is, and two mounting points means you're fighting to pan. But it allows for chest and above shots.
@Grug mentioned this in the 2024 thread, but this is where blkbrd (blackbird) mantis comes in - https://blkbrd.film/, which makes panning with the ready rig less of an arm wrestle. It's not free flowing like an easyrig pan but the range is definitely increased. See 11:47 (mantis) and 15:00 (stock ready rig) for the difference in pan range between the two
The bungee system looks fantastic in terms of making the easyrig and ready rigs what they should be, but because the Mantis design is so simple and effective, you're really just using the easy rig and ready rigs to provide mounting points. There's obviously more complexity with the ready rig arms being able to adjust, which is closer to having two products work hand in hand. For the easyrig, the very expensive vario 5 simply provides a way to properly position the mantis arm - most of the tech is thrown away. By thrown away, I mean the vest/waist straps are solid, but the majority of what you're paying for is in the overhead arm. If an operator uses the rig for handheld in addition to gimbal work that's fine, but for a gimbal only project, to only be providing the mantis a mount, potentially feels like money not well spent.
So, why not use something like:
- external frame backpack
- vertical speed rail along the backpack and continuing above head, horizontal speed rail via a 90 degree connector
- blkbrd mantis dual or quad tube, connected to speed rail via their speed rail adapter
- easyrig easy tilt
You'd end up with a rig that freely pans and tilts, while choosing your height via appropriate vertical speed rail. I'm just thinking that a 1+ month rental of either easyrig vario 5 with G2 or G3 stabil arm, or ready rig with mantis, vs. cobbling together the speed rail back pack and buying a blkbrd mantis dual or quad tube, the DIY might win out this time. I'm always careful with DIY but this is a hybrid DIY where you're giving the mantis tech a better starting point than any (I think) off the shelf options. I'm aware of height restrictions of moving through doors etc that this custom rig would be guilty of, but just wondering if anyone has any initial thoughts.
With my current rs4 pro gimbal rig, to attach to ready rig, I would need to provide vertical tube in the same way most movi pro or ronin 2 rings allow for a mount. This means adding lightweight tube horizontally to more closely match the width of the ring, as well as a couple inches of vertical tubing. The monster ring width was one of the major goals I was avoiding in my own build (!), although it'd be worth it in this case to comply with the support rig.
Also, is speed rail in line with the neck a safety concern? If yes, maybe it's a speed rail pair goal post on the backpack side, before extending horizontally as a single rail.
