Getting started composing music scores

J.R. Hudson

J.R. Hudson

Spirit Animal
Along time ago I saw on Once Upon A Time in Mexico Robert Rodriguez's music studio; I have zero idea what it all entailed but consisted of what appeared to be:

An Electric Guitar (which I play)
A Keyboard (MIDI?)
A computer and some software

He would click on an 'instrument' on the computer (strings for example) and then play a riff on the guitar and BAM; it's like there was an Orchestra playing it

How does one get started in this? Im talking low-budget here. Im talking with my exisiting stuff; what is need or reccomended?

I would love to be able to score music :undecided
 
Great questions, John, I'm looking forward to hearing what everyone has to say. I know Neil does this, hopefully he'll chime in. If not, PM him.
 
There are MIDI controller guitars (also MIDI attachments for existing guitars). Sounds like he used one or the other.

As to software...with a MIDI controller, you could do that with a SoundBlaster and no additional software except for that needed for recording what you did as MIDI rather than audio. Meaning: nothing fancy, software-wise.

Of course, you COULD go out and get fancy stuff. :)

Dan

Dan
 
Edirol.com, soundsonline.com, and garritan.com all have orchestral soft synths (VSTi) that when installed in through a midi sequencer (cubase/sonar/protools) can play back midi instructions through whichever instrument you choose.

I have EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold Edition and the instruments sound incredible, probably cause they were sampled from real instruments in a working orchestra. Its probaly why its so much more expensive. Its also a real ram hog, (dont use anything less than 2 gigs) But they have a real "fat" hollywood sound, and if you listen to some of the mp3 samples from the site, you cant tell that its midi.

My problem is that since I cant play the keyboard, all my music sounds "experiemental" as I just mash keys and hope for the best :)
 
.. tough one.. i know we chatted bout it before, bt its hard to really get into anything with quality without speding too much money. id go for a little cheap midi software prgram called "digital orchestrator plus" by voyetra.. i think its called something else now though.

http://www.voyetra.com/site/products/rp/rpdx.asp

record producer delux i guess but the midi control is outstanding even in my dinosaur old version of the program.

then id just get the best synth you can afford to use as a midi controller for some softeware patches like the garitan orchestra or such as mentioned above... and also for its onboard sounds. personally i use all onbard sounds from a synth that probably wieghs as much as i do . but i think a little setup with the midi software. a good synth for keys to controll your software sample and to use some good onboar sound would be a killer start. if you cant get a nicer synth get a cheap midi controller and just use the software like garritan.. ive never used it but peopl say good things.
 
John, I can talk for hours about this, but it might actually be better to actually talk about it rather than to just type it, although this may be good for the archives. FINALLY, something I know a bit about, LOL!

Ok. First, what musical experience do you have, what instruments (if any) do you own and what music software do you possess? I need to know where your starting from. Also, while I'm going to give you the cheapest routs possible, I REALLY want you to consider looking at a program called Cubase SX3. Why? Because not only is it one of the best music creation programs (midi) it is an outstanding audio app for mixing a film. In fact it's big brother (Nuendo) is often used as a substitute for ProTools HD (what you saw Rodrieguez use). You can also look at my site: http://www.birthofthecool.com/postproduction.html and see a minimalist set up. I've basically duplicated what he has at a MUCH lower budget, but I can still do most all he can do. The only real differences between Nuendo and Cubase are if you're working with actual film transfers. Since you're not, you really would be well served with Cubase. It is an investment, but it's not huge, and once you start working with it (you can import a movie, and score to film, do your sound design and mix as if you were in a large studio) you will never look at sound the same again - I promise.

Just think about it. And answer those questions!!!

Matty
(Day 3 without a smoke)
 
GenJerDan said:
There are MIDI controller guitars (also MIDI attachments for existing guitars). Sounds like he used one or the other.
Click to expand...

Actually, he recorded his own regular guitar direct to disk in protools and used an amp/effects modeling pluggin while recording to get the sound he wanted. There are midi guitars, but you're better off with a keyboard controller, especially if you start modeling orchestral instruments.

Matt
 
Edweirdo said:
I have EWQL Symphonic Orchestra Gold Edition and the instruments sound incredible, probably cause they were sampled from real instruments in a working orchestra. Its probaly why its so much more expensive. Its also a real ram hog, (dont use anything less than 2 gigs) But they have a real "fat" hollywood sound, and if you listen to some of the mp3 samples from the site, you cant tell that its midi.
Click to expand...

I agree, I also love EWQL Orchestra. For film scoring they have the best stuff. Very Hans Zimmer. They have a Silver edition, which is also quite good and less money. The nice thing about EW is that their products are fully upgradeable with the entire amount of your purchase price going toward the upgrade, so you never lose out.

But to really make it sound like real acoustic instruments and not a synth requires a bit of work. You may want to check out this reference: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-8411918-7929709?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
 
iamloser,

It took me a while to convert, but I don't use any hardware synths anymore. The softsynths are just soooo much better and more powerful. Granted it's easier to just fire up a Triton and experiment, but for final sound selection? Softsynths all the way!

Matt
 
I've said it before here and will say it again. Making orchestral music with computer is extremely difficult task. Even though we have really really good orchestral libraries around, it doesn't mean making music is any easier. No, no, no, it just isn't. And will not be. But yes, it is totally possible. But you have to know exactly what you are doing. And when you are doing music with your PC, it doesn't stop only in your composition. You have to mix and master your songs also if you are after a pro sound.

There are two main symphonic symphonic libraries at the moment. EW QL and Vienna stuff. I'm using both and can say that EW QL is a lot more easier for the beginner. For Vienna stuff you will need also Gigastudio and preferably on a dedicated computer(s).

Also Garritan Personal Orchestra is really good for beginner.

If you really want to score orchestral music, I would definately recommend you to study orchestration. There's no way around it. You will need to learn all the instruments inside real orchestra. You will need to learn about harmony. You will need to learn about counterpoint. Study composition. Study everything you can. Study every sheet you get your hands on and see how others have done it.

And listen to orchestral music. Listen it really carefully. Listen how different instruments have been used in different situations. Analyze the songs you like. Think about why do they sound as good as they sound and start finding the answers.

And don't be disappointed if you don't get any good music at all in your first years and attempts. It takes years really. It's a lifetime process. Patience is the key.

In making music, at the end of the day it's all about the musical ideas you have. Less is really more. It's all the same which million dollar studio you have if you don't have any musical ideas you want to develop.

If this sounds negative to someone, it's not meant to be. It's just a way I see it.

:thumbsup:
 
Yes petelms, you're right, but John isn't necessarily going to be composing for orchestra. He might start with loops, synths, drum tracks, etc...

Also you'd be surprised how many well known "film composers" cannot orchestrate and hire others to do that for them once they've developed the basis of the composition...

I'm in the middle of moving, and have packed up all my books including my old text books, but when I get a chance I'll post a library for composition.

Matt
 
Yes petelms, you're right, but John isn't necessarily going to be composing for orchestra. He might start with loops, synths, drum tracks, etc...
Click to expand...

Ah! Oke, yeah! I just thought it's about orchestral music when I heard the word "score..." ....heheheh, my mistake! :)

Also you'd be surprised how many well known "film composers" cannot orchestrate and hire others to do that for them once they've developed the basis of the composition...
Click to expand...

Yeah, there are all kinds of "film composers" around...and sometimes there's just not enough time so it's better to hire orchestrator.
 
Damn I knew this would be complicated

IAL - Yes, I lost the Printout took on that :undecided :lipsrseal :(

MattC - I play Guitar (Intermediate) and am beginner Keys

I'm looking for that basic entry level approach. I'd rather use an electric guitar than keyboards. I was hoping I could buy:

Software with all the cool instruments
An adapter to plug the guitar into computer (or is this where MIDI comes into play? I suppose I could breakdown and get some entry level cheap ass keys but the guitar part is mandatory)

I can't really invest in any other components or luxuries at the time (relocation) but I'd love to be able to 'Pick an instrument: SAX' and then play it on Guitar and then BAM it's on Timeline; and then do the layers....

I know i know Im being rudimentary about it.
 
John I just PM'd you.

You can't really do what you want with the guitar. You can in theory, but not in practice and yes, you'd need a midi guitar which would be cost prohibitive in all likely hood (and still wouldn't work well). You can get a very inexpensive midi controller from M-Audio that would do what you want and a direct box for your guitar. After that you're money is going to go into software. First you need a good audio app, I already recommended Cubase - best for the $ and you wont outgrow it. After that, a little at a time. But yes, by the time you're done (a year or two out) figure you will have the same investment in audio that you do in video.

Matt
 
MIDI guitar is probably a bad choice for your primary input source. They are very prone to lots of false triggers and such. They can work fine for unreal type source, or guitar-ish sounds, but it would be very poor way to score a piano, for example. You can get a cheapo MIDI keyboard that is touch sensitive for <100$
 
By the way, the sax is the one instrument I've NEVER heard sampled well. I've actually been learning to play it so I don't have to sample it.

Also, keep in mind, instruments sound the way they do not only because of what sound they make (timber, harmonics, etc) but because of how they're played. That's why if I play a "guitar patch" on a keybaord and don't use certain controls (expression wheel/mod wheel) and don't do any work to the midi file in "post", it wont sound like a guitar. It will sound like a piano making guitar sounds (you've heard this a million times). To make something played on a piano to sound like a guitar takes a fair bit of work, but it can be done reasonably well if you take the time.

But again, this isn't where you should be starting. You should be thinking more like Rodriquez. Simple atmospheric rock type stuff. This you could do easily with loops, a basic synth package like SampleTank, a keyboard controller an audio app and your guitar.

Matt
 
MattC said:
Actually, he recorded his own regular guitar direct to disk in protools and used an amp/effects modeling pluggin while recording to get the sound he wanted. There are midi guitars, but you're better off with a keyboard controller, especially if you start modeling orchestral instruments.
Click to expand...

Way back in the olden days when I was in Jr HS and still had hair, our school bought a Condor Innoflex (at least I think that was its name).

You'd put a special mouthpiece on a clarinet or sax or trumpet or whatever, hook it up to the box, flip some switches, and out of the box came the sound of...something else. For instance, the sax would sound like a flute.

It was SO cool.

Dan
 
Also, as for midi sequencers go, take a look at Cakewalk's new Sonar Home Studio. Its much beefier than thier old Home Studio. Its just been released, and I am finding it better suits me than Cubase SE (both are around the same price point: approx $125). In Sonar HS you can:

-use acid loops
-use standard audio tracks
-use VSTis
-and of course have a Video preview
-convert midi to loops

Now if only Vegas had soft synth support :grin:
 
I've also got a question. I have a decent synth with a MIDI out. The problem is that I don't have a MIDI in on my computer. What's the cheapest way to get my setup to work?
 
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