getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

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As I think most people agree, video looks better in close-up than it does in wide shots. You’ll see a scene of close-ups shot on DV that goes toe-to-toe with film. But as soon as you cut to a wide shot or an establishing shot of something, it looks terrible. It’s a dead giveaway for video.

Yet I’ve seen a few wide shots on this site (of forests and mountains) that look great. So I know it’s possible to get nice wide shots in DV. The question is… how do you do it??

Any tips?
(I assume this will differ between indoors and outdoors. So maybe we should split the discussion in two).
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

I think turning down the detail level might help, but I'd also like to hear what other people have to say.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

My answer is a resounding "NO". I think it has something to do with the pixels being processed, blown up (square, round - who knows?) and the resolution factor. We are in pre-production for a feature that will be shot with the DVX100A. We have access to an A-minima 16mm camera which we will do the wide/establishing shots. If it is within our budget, we will even go to 35mm, get some re-can film and shoot. Being that most establishing shot or wide shots won't be more than 5 seconds, it won't be expensive to process. Every wide shot I've seen utilizing DV looks awful. Using film for the wide shots will eliminate one of the tell tale signs that you are using DV.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

I think we all agree that wide shots are a problem area.

And while the answer "NO- shoot film," is definitely an approach that will provide superior wide shots, I don't think it answer's C.G.'s original question. Film aside, are there any ways of improving the look of a DVX wide shot?

C.G. is right -- in the Screen Grabs/Clips section of this site, I've seen some wide shots that look pretty good. This has been one of my problem areas with the camera. So if anyone has advice, I'd be curious to hear.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Even exposures are important - don't have your video clip to blowouts. Because with wide shots, most people shooting DV don't light them, and therefore they don't look good.

Also, as Kevin mentioned, not shooting with much "detail" levels helps - I'd never really use much of the 'detail' anyways - not in close-ups either. You want a small amount, but nothing noticeable...
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

I have an interesting (to me at least) theory borne of years of lens testing and experience.

Lenses due to the laws of physics are sharper (have higher resolution and contrast) as the focal length gets shorter, so the wide end of the zoom is the sharpest- yet the image appears to be sharper at telephoto in actual use.

I believe the brain associates detail with sharpness, when you are zoomed in or using a longer focal length you see detail in the subject that your brain equates with "sharpness" but at wide angle (short focal lengths) your cannot see the same fine details in the subject because the image is too small and the brain equates this with being "unsharp".

Using a higher resolution format for wide shots will result in them looking better but if you shot everything in Super 16 and transferred to 35mm, the wide shots would still not look as "sharp" as the close-ups.

One might reasonably expect that the lower the resolution of the format being used the more the problem would be perceived.

The classic example of the brain vs reality is the rising full moon looking much larger than when it is overhead. The moon subtends approx 1/2 degree and this doesn't change, but the brain seeing the moon near the horizon associates that with being closer then overhead and therefore larger. This (the moon illusion) was studied many years ago in Scientific American Magazine with this conclusion.

Food for thought?

Bill Turner
Century Division
Schneider Optics
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Are there any good examples of using 16mm wide/establishing shots mixed with DV? Here on the site or anywhere for that matter.

Thanx
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Personally I'd think it would be a bad idea - 16mm has a considerably higher amount of gran than the DVX, and you'd be getting a completely different look. It'll take the audience right out of the movie...
I'd vouch much more for lighting the wide shots properly, and composing them in an interestingly enough way that a video look won't matter, because it looks good. I've never had any problems to my knowledge with wide shots looking bad - other than the fact that they're low in resolution, there's nothing aesthetically wrong with them in my eyes.

A thought however - shooting High Def for those shots may be what you're after and match better when transfered to SD than the 16mm.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

[quote author=Mike_Donis link=board=news;num=1098248000;start=0#7 date=10/22/04 at 13:12:22]Personally I'd think it would be a bad idea - 16mm has a considerably higher amount of gran than the DVX, and you'd be getting a completely different look.  It'll take the audience right out of the movie...
I'd vouch much more for lighting the wide shots properly, and composing them in an interestingly enough way that a video look won't matter, because it looks good.  I've never had any problems to my knowledge with wide shots looking bad - other than the fact that they're low in resolution, there's nothing aesthetically wrong with them in my eyes.

[/quote]

Good points. Thanx. Nice to see examples of the formats mixed together though.

I’ve seen some seriously kick ass DVX wide shots from disjecta (and others) so it’s definitely doable!

Instead of renting HD equip I could hire disjecta
to do the wide shots… what do ya think he goes for?
Bout 2hun an hour or so? ;D
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Just shoot 35mm, transfer it back to tape and pretend it was shot on a DVX. That's what I do anyway and I seem to be getting away with it.

8)
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

If your doing a static wide with nothing moving in the shot perhaps you can get away with a still shot from a good digital still camera. Add some sound recorded on location and it just might sell. For alittle money you can get your hands on a video camera that has around 800 lines of resolution. It doesnt have to be HD so the rental fee could be affordable.

If you want to stick to the DVX then perhaps you can get that last 5% of sharpness out of it by stopping down to around f/4-f/5.6. This is generally the sweet spot of most optics. Also try and frame your shots so that the viewer never feels like they want to look closely at any particular objects to make out their detail. You can make this happen by removing objects like signs with small words that are bright or in the middle of the frame and another idea is to have your main actors walk or turn away from the camera if they are small in the frame. That way the audience isnt looking at their faces and trying to make out their features. Other than that make sure you master your project to DVD the best you can. Good luck!

-Brett Erskine
www.CinematographerReels.com

Oh yeah forgot one thing. You can always hire me. ;-)
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

I saw "land of plenty" in a small theater and there is a lot of wide shots in all sort of conditions :
day/night
city/desert
And all were incredibly good.

For example, the last shot (dolly shot) at ground zero is really very nice and sharp.

I don't know how they proceeded but it is possible to get nice wide shots.
Edit : Perhaps they have stolen the Barry's guide before the final release! ;D
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

I've been saying, I haven't had any issues ever with getting my wide shots the same calibre as my close-ups. They look just as good, cinematographically speaking - they're just wider, and less detailed, but it's always like that with any medium you're shooting on...
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

[quote author=hvpz link=board=news;num=1098248000;start=0#12 date=10/23/04 at 05:58:11]I saw "land of plenty" in a small theater and there is a lot of wide shots in all sort of conditions :
day/night
city/desert
And all were incredibly good.

For example, the last shot (dolly shot) at ground zero is really very nice and sharp.

I don't know how they proceeded but it is possible to get nice wide shots.
Edit : Perhaps they have stolen the Barry's guide before the final release! ;D[/quote]


Hey hvpz,

Was the film any good? And did it look good on the big screen?

All the best

Fidel.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

Brett mentions a very good idea. To add to his:

You can pan, zoom etc a still photo (granted you would have to have no action in the frame). You could also shoot an actor against a greenscreen and then composite the two together - even with motion of the camera. Could be an interesting effect.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

[quote author=araujofh link=board=news;num=1098248000;start=0#14 date=10/24/04 at 11:59:25]


Hey hvpz,

Was the film any good? And did it look good on the big screen?

All the best

Fidel.[/quote]

Hum... I didn't find the film very interesting. I think the script is not very well developped and the characters not explored in depth. But the actors were very good.
The subject was difficult and I think Wenders failed to cover it.

Concerning the look, I found it incredible. Really. I couldn't believe my eyes. The pana is a great tool.
Only one shot looked DV all the others were between S16 and 35mm imho.

There was a lot of wide shots : in death valley, in LA, in NYC. (in all sort of conditions : day/night) and all were very nice.
Curiously, I found the close-up shots a little bit grainy and not the wide ones...

They did an very nice job and with a good dp, you can be confident to go to the big screen with the dvx.

You don't need to wait the next camera to join the filmaker's heaven : go with the dvx.
I was still "flip-floping" (i like very much this english word ! sounds good when you prononciate it with a french accent) between dvx and s16 to go to the big screen (if it's possible...) but now I'm really sure with the choice of the dvx.

It could be interesting to know more about the post processing of land of plenty and the company who did the blow-up because there are certainly things and advices to learn from them.

All the best ;)
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it possibl

"You could also shoot an actor against a greenscreen and then composite the two together - even with motion of the camera. Could be an interesting effect."

Nice. I'm still not sure if this will work but one thing you can do to give it a better chance of it compositing together properly is to frame the element of the actors so they fill the frame head to toe. That will give you a higher rez video of them so it looks clean when you resize the actors to fit properly in the wide shot taken with a still camera. You'll have a better chance to retain extremely fine detail that way. This method will open yourself up to using actors or objects in motion in frame.

1)Shoot wide with high rez digital still camera
2)From same POV and under the same lighting zoom in and frame a head to toe shoot of your actors in the same part of the set with a small green screen behind them.
3)Resize actors and composite in post.

It just might work. Someone should try it.
 
Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

Re: getting nice wide shots in DV.  Is it pos

I'll see about giving it a try tomarrow or (more likely) Thursday unless someone beats me too it :)
 
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