Funding movie out of your own pocket - strategy?

OK after reading this thread here is my 2 cents...

I personally think that experience and connections can take you a long way. I am also in that over 50 crowd... (yea it's hard for me to believe as well.. time flies). I have been doing all sorts of paid projects since the early 90's. From a few thousand dollars up to $200K. Docs, corporate, commercials, Playboy Television, Comcast cable hotel PPV and over 50 low budget movies for companies that I don't admit in public. One thing that has been a constant requirement for me... "SQUEEZE THE DOLLAR" in the budgets, be very resourceful and light on your feet. I wore many hats and worked with small crews on these projects. Become a jack of all trades and learn everything you can... you'll need to draw on it to be successful with your film. Be a finagler! Repeat that... Be a finagler!

My entire career was a dress rehearsal for making a good film, which I am in the process of planning now. I am working on the script. That was my plan and route to travel. Gain as much experience and confidence in your abilities as possible... Get connections, network with people that have money, and than go for it. As someone else has said.. Don't be afraid to succeed. The road has been longer and bumpier than I expected, but the journey has been great.

Industry people are not going to come to you... If you live in Podunk USA than it may be a problem to network with people. That does clearly put you at a disadvantage to start with. Get yourself out there.. go to trade shows and conventions, try to make friends and connections there. Use your local film board and attend local film related gatherings etc. It's really all about networking and cultivating relationships on the business side of things, besides becoming technically proficient.

Seek out the brokers and buyers in the industry, and learn the market for your particular product. I see guys starting projects on here that realistically have no chance of succeeding right from the get go. Why? because they are following a fad or current craze that is already over saturated, such as cheap horror or paranormal cookie cutter rip off shows. Really what do you have to add that hasn't been already done? Be a realist. Do you want to make money?

Yes I have financed many of my own projects and made money on all of them. So my point of view is a different than the nay sayers. All of my experiences, good and bad, will certainly be to my advantage when we produce our film. I won't be using my money, but I will spend it like it was... with the expectation to make money.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...
 
October Black,

I knew someone would take my post personally and nitpick about things like the "age" comment in my post.

First off, I generalized a completely different topic - I generalized an opinion based on 4 years browsing these boards as a member (2 as not) and have observed the attitudes of members on this forum. Of course they're not all like that, but sometimes you do have to generalize based on what you've read in a thread - the majority of answers in this thread had merited generalization when I posted my comment.

Where in your post did it have anything to do with budget? You talked about his reel, you talked about his story and you talked about if he was good enough. What does any of that have to do with his budget? It does have to do with art however and on that stance, you are correct. If its simply just art, then he can just go ahead and create his film.

With regards to separating business from art...it's really not all that hard. Put your marketing dollars into pre-prod and actual production, don't approach investors and convince them of ROIs, don't develop a press kit (unless needed for film fests and that's only if you want your movie to be SEEN...has nothing to do with business) and the list goes on.

It was probably just one of those questions...read the thread title over again and ignore the rest of it. Maybe a figure of how much he has to spend and what he needs to spend it on might be important and you guys can take it from there, but one person's definition of "success" is entirely different than another's. It sounds like he wants to make a film that people enjoy, not pay for.

And in case you think I'm picking you out, I actually looked at your trailers previously, think you have good potential and on a completely unrelated note, think you should avoid the B&W look and go with the stylized look of trailer #2...it just has an awesome look to it.

Kegan
 
Question

Question



Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge!

I am about to invest in a movie that is an action/horror.

It has a couple of SAG actors (one is on TV and one is about to be in a role in a $100M+ movie).

The production team has a lot of experience and they have distribution connections.

Is it totally unreasonable for the movie to make $300,000 in revenues?

I am just trying to figure out if I have a decent chance of recovering my investment. I am not investing all of that!!! Just a tiny portion.

Thanks.




 
Thought

Thought

I think I have seen it before on DVXUSER someone discussed the idea of people with different skills teaming together. They would also each contribute some fixed amount of money.

It just seems like lots of people here want to make a quality movie but don't have all the cash for it. If you are actively involved in making a movie then you don't need a PPM to raise the money so that handles legal (or greatly reduces the cost).

I have been studying low budget films that have been mentioned on this board and it seems lots of decent movies have been made for less than $25,000. Granted they have access to good equipment, free locations, a great idea, some luck, etc. But that is what it takes sometimes to make it work on 25K.

Without judging anyone it seems like a lot of us (or at least I did) wanted to say I made a film all by myself – it was more of an ego thing. I realized I had no ability to do so and the money I would spend would be small and the product most likely would stink. It struck me to try to get involved in something bigger, and even if my ego can’t say I did it all myself, at least I have a better chance of being part of a decent/good movie that I can say I was part of.

Would anyone want to be involved in something like that? I may be investing in a movie (mentioned in the post above) so that may take all my money. But I still think that a dedicated group of people, contributing some cash and skills, and checking their egos could make something that could get distribution and make a little money.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Why4009 said:
I have been studying low budget films that have been mentioned on this board and it seems lots of decent movies have been made for less than $25,000. Granted they have access to good equipment, free locations, a great idea, some luck, etc. But that is what it takes sometimes to make it work on 25K.
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What movies are these and where can I go to see them?

And do these stories REALLY require a feature length running time? I wonder if there aren't a lot of people on here who just want to make a feature and so they write a story around that, instead of just crafting the story and see how long of a running time the idea demands.
 
Why4009,

I've tried the team up idea and it goes nowhere fast. Most of the people I've met who are pursuing film want to be directors. I find that working alone with proper planning works best at this level. I try to have a couple of people on set to help, but they don't need to be filmmakers, friends work just fine. My 2 pennies worth.
 
Andrew McCarrick said:
And investors refuse to invest in projects with a director or producer that has zero credits (and short films don't generally count). Trust me, I've been in this position for 8 years now. No personal funding, and no investors because I have no directing credits. Investors want to see previous feature projects that have been some what successful.
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Before I forget who else I was addressing, Craig had it right -- most of us don't have another choice. I happen to have the funds to make this project the right way, but nobody would be likely to fund my film based on my experience as a corporate / music video director of small projects, and having done one short film that saw release (to festivals, I mean, the others I shelved).

Anyway, Andrew is right on the point he made, that investors want to see previous features, even if they were not successful commercially at least it would show you can start and finish a feature and have some clue what you're doing ;)

Also, this point seems lost on a lot of people because they all have the lottery mentality (i.e. indie filmmaking is impossible and you will only make your money back 1 in 1,000 times, which isn't true, but whatever), but why would I want my film to be totally financed by outside money? First, I can afford to lose the investment I'm making. It won't cripple me. It would be a blow, and I wouldn't like it, and I know about 99.9% for sure I won't lose all that money, worst case probably I lost 35% of it, but I could sustain the blow. So that being said, why would I want other people to profit from what I know is going to be a successful film? It's a $150,000 budget, out of which I'll get almost nothing as a writer-director. If it had other investors, I would still get the same pay, which is basically nothing. So I'd spend 6 months of my life intensively working on this, probably several years overall working on it (between script, making it, promoting it, etc.) and make what like $5,000 for writing and directing it? Haha, sorry but I need to make money, this is my line of work, I don't have a day job besides doing corporate video work. I can't really afford to sacrifice that much time and have 0 chance at making money. This way, I'm the investor. If this film is a hit, I make money. I have no problems investing in myself -- if I don't believe it's a good investment, why should anyone else?

If this film is successful, I don't even think I'd search for outside investment on a second film, even though I could do it easily. I'd probably make another film around the same budget and invest myself again, because I want to make the money, I don't want it all going to the investors. When I want investor financing is when I'm doing a film in the $2-5 million range, where obviously for one I don't have that much money, and two, I can join the DGA or at least ask for DGA rates, and say look I want $25,000 for this screenplay and I know the DGA minimum is $75,000 for me directing this film, so that's what I'm going to require if you want to make this film that I'm packaging. At least that way I can make money, and assume no financial risk. But early on, no risk, no reward!
 
Why4009 said:


Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge!

I am about to invest in a movie that is an action/horror.

It has a couple of SAG actors (one is on TV and one is about to be in a role in a $100M+ movie).

The production team has a lot of experience and they have distribution connections.

Is it totally unreasonable for the movie to make $300,000 in revenues?

I am just trying to figure out if I have a decent chance of recovering my investment. I am not investing all of that!!! Just a tiny portion.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Why4009? Hard to tell with such little info. Ask yourself where are the monies going to come from? For U.S. domestic, if it's a good little film and is desired by distributors, you'll probably be looking at $25-50k, though you might get dunned with expenses out of that for e&o, mpaa, etc. Foreign on a horror film I think is getting pretty saturated, and after hopefully finding a sales agent who doesn't take more than its' share, I could see somewhere in the $50-100k range. So $300k would be tough.

Steve LUstgarten
leofilms.com
 
Take Out was a decent movie made for 3k. I just saw Deadlands 2 - that has been talked abuot on this board. It was made for 6k, I bet for another 19k it could have been greatly improved - but he made every dollar count and it seems like he has made money. There is a football movie that has been talked about on this board that cost 10k to make. I ordered it on netflix will see how good it is. People say he had access to 200k of equipment.

Anniversary party was filmed on a dvx100 - granted the budget was high but it was a simple movie - all shot at a house. You can get a dvx 100 cheap.

London to Brighton was made for 16,000 british poinds (which is about 30k or less).

There are multiple examples, just search for them. Yes, they got some help (as far as freebies go), yes they are not totally perfect but that gives it that independent flavor.

If you are an awesome writer and had a camera I bet you could make 5k go a long way by writing something that is acting intensive and not reliant on a lot of props.

Nate has made films for less than 5k I believe.

Do I have that talent? No. But there are some on this board who do.
 
Steve so if I follow the math right, adding together the domestic and foreign the range is from 75k to 150k? I know someone who made a movie in that 300k range (more of a thinking man's thriller) had a tv actor and its US distribution company projected on the low end 50,000 dvd sales (to stores) and that would net in around 285K after expense. Not factoring in foreign.

I believe given the quality of the producers of this film I am looking to invest in (they have worked on Hollywood features) and their extensive connections in the industry I would hope that they could make a decent picture.

Your 25k to 50k for US distribution seems low to me but I am not in the industry - so I am seeking to get educated. $50,000 is about 10,000 dvd sales. Though Blockbuster is in trouble, it sometimes will take 10,000 dvds alone right? If it is a decent flick with some recongnizable faces. Or at least that is what I hear.

Corrado which was heavily discussed on DVXUSER, I think did better than 50k.

Not trying to be defensive because I have nothing to defend, just trying to get a feel for what can happen.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

R
 
Sneakle said:
Let's say I want to make a movie funded out of my own pocket, for x amount. Maybe I have friends and family kick in half of that in small amounts, but not as proper legal "investors" but just by a criteria I define such as a promise to pay them plus a percentage if the thing sells. So someone likes the finished movie and wants to buy the product for x amount a year later. Do you foresee any problems that would crop up making a movie this way? Or have any of you done this?
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Here's my two cents on this. It's perfectly legal to get friends and family to invest in the film, but I think you shouldn't call it an "investment" as much as a possibility to make some money if everything goes well.

I've funding all my films out of pocket and honestly haven't made much of a profit, but then again I've had ton of fun, I've gotten work and I'm making a third one. I just ordered my camera (HG10 + mid range SLIK tripod) and someone is actually asking to shoot the film with their DSLR and they're a pro DP who loves working on indie films. Where will it go? Who knows.

1. DON'T max out credit cards. (Someone already said it, I'll reiterate it). Save money for the project and get people, students mainly, to work for you.

2. Get a great script, director and a DP.

3. If possible cast a name actor or actress or a few if not try to get the best actors you can afford, whether they're known or not.

4. Your crew has to be knowledgeable about the basics before you can build on anything even if it's only you the grip and the boom person.

5. Do good post, color correct, do sound and get music scored (it helps if you know music or have a friend that's does and is willing to do it).

6. Know your genre/audience.

7. And yes do the business plan.

I talk about all this in my book "Action Filmmaking" including marketing. A lot of my knowledge doesn't come from successes, it comes from my screw ups. Learn from my mistakes so you won't have to make them. Each time I make a film it's better than the last. In this film ALL my fighters will have to know martial arts. We have two local up and coming scream queens onboard, one whose worked with Debbie Rochon and is slated to work with her again. We have Victoria De Mare still attached and Estevez too. As long as the two fan favs are attached there's a chance people will come to me. If not, it's no biggie.

I'm keeping the budget tiny, probably won't break five digits and I'll be shocked if it does. This is the same film I wanted to shoot for $50,000. But I realized most of the stuff I wanted I could get by simply asking for it. That cut the budget incredibly. And I'll be using all the my common free locations and some new ones. This is the second film where I built props (you can click on my "Divinity" bumper to see some in my last post) myself instead of paying for everything or paying someone else to do it and I'm going to have a great time. I'm also in the process of marketing my books and will come out with a book and DVD for any of the advanced stuff we do on this film, so money is being made, just not a ton and not all at once Yet!

Also, next time I do a film I'm having a big after set party at one of the hottest clubs here in Chicago (I now know a club promoter) and I will probably get someone to premiere the film somewhere on a big screen. I have someone in mind but I don't know if he'd be down for it yet, but I'll find out. If not, I'll pay for someone to do it. All this is marketing, BTW.

-Nate
 
As someone said, If you've been in the business a while you can finagle quite a lot of what you need. Some of my locations are business clients I've done work for. To land good actors and crew, I have visual aids to lay out in front of them when I make my pitch. My "pitch" includes these elements: story synopsis, storyboards, prop sketches, wardrobe designs for each character, location photos, character sketches. They see you have done your homework, you obviously aren't going to be wasting their time making something crappy and they'll want to be a part of your project. I tell them the pay will be low but they'll be treated with respect, working in a creative environment, and fed well; and I schedule shoots around their regular jobs when possible. I help the actors improve their promotional reels and headshots, even if they don't ask for it. Obviously these aren't big name actors but they are good actors who have appeared in character rolls in movies you've heard of.
 
Sneakle said:
To land good actors and crew, I have visual aids to lay out in front of them when I make my pitch. My "pitch" includes these elements: story synopsis, storyboards, prop sketches, wardrobe designs for each character, location photos, character sketches. They see you have done your homework, you obviously aren't going to be wasting their time making something crappy and they'll want to be a part of your project.
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I think this is a great tip. The more someone can visualize your concept, the more they may relate and be excited to be part of. Thanks.
 
A good thread despite the dire warnings. Sneakle's profile states he went to college "a long time ago', like me, so my guess is that he has an idea for a film. The thing I didn't hear in his OP, is that he has a script that people find compelling. Are you a scriptwriter, director, producer, cameraman, or what? What do you start from? (I start from cameraman).

I would not ask for any money from anyone without a script, or a solid documentary storyline. (I recieved a $10k grant in January for a great documentary idea and the fact that I had a great deal of confidence that I could do it, I'll probably make $5 an hour when all is said and done, but I'm loving it). Going to friends and family should always be prefaced with, "it's likely that you'll never see this $x.00 you are 'loaning' me, but if I strike it rich you'll share in the profits." Seems like I heard that before, when the '49ers struck out for the California gold fields. But heck, if you can do that pitch to friends, and they give you money with no expectation of a return, you are learning how Hollywood does it! Also, maybe add to your script an up and coming actor/actress in your town that likes the script and is willing to jump on board, and leverage that for your pitch. Just be careful that you don't harm those long standing relationships with thoughts that your odds are better than you think. The 'odds' of making money in video/film, from what I've read and many years of watching are very much stacked against you.

Script magazine had a good article this month about whether scriptwriters could be successful directors. Worth the read. The mag has Noah Baumbach of Greenberg on the cover.

You know, it might be good, at this stage of the game, to go talk to, or listen to, folks in the position just ahead of you, maybe take some of that money and drive (or fly) to Sundance, or some other 'indie' locale, and listen to the folks trying to market their 'baby'. What was their formula?

It's just impossible to give great hopeful advice without knowing how good your script is, whether you have the know how and personality to actually 'direct' and 'produce', and whether you have done your homework understanding the odds.

As I am doing myself, I'm working on some short documentaries, that I'm actually getting paid a small amount to do. Additionally, I've written a short script on a personal piece of work that is 5 minutes long and I've spent 6 months thinking about (I've decided my current 150 is not the camera to shoot this with and will likely use a Lumix for DOF reasons), and I hold out no likelyhood of making money on any of this until I learn a lot more about how people are really making money these days on video/film.

Anyway, I'm off this AM to volunteer sound/boom op for a guy in town with a good script, started as a play he has put on successfully, he's built a great set, got great props, has hired a costume designer/maker, found a cameraman (haven't met him yet, he's from the big city), and seems likely to actually have a 15 to 20 minute short that will be able to get him into some indie festivals. Will he make money? Who knows. My guess is that it's a tool for him to leverage himself into screen writing or producing a longer piece. Additionally, he's a guy that when you meet him, you believe that he has a chance to make a successful short. Would I invest in it? No. Not likely. I prefer the stock market for investing. So that's what you are up against...But don't let any of us stop you!

CU Later...
 
The thing I didn't hear in his OP, is that he has a script that people find compelling. Are you a scriptwriter, director, producer, cameraman?
I've done all that and music scoring too.

I have a script I started 2 years ago. It's unique and I think compelling. I don't want to spring it yet as I'm protective of it until I decide how to pace the launch. I write well about topics I know about so that's what I did. I've done a lot of commercial writing and producing but not much long form. I have a degree in drawing and painting; and boy will that make you a lot of money. So I learned graphics, worked a long time as an art director, bought an Aaton 16mm and shot the heck out that in the 90's. Now with p2 I can shoot without mortgaging the house. Which brings me back to the topic at hand, making something - out of my own pocket.

For those who are studying the process: the script is everything. It's where the ideas are. And as David Lynch says in his schoolboy, gee whiz manner: "Ideas are the best thing going!" It sound simplistic but It keeps ringing in my head. The production itself is a grind.
 
Tommy K said:
I think this is a great tip. The more someone can visualize your concept, the more they may relate and be excited to be part of. Thanks.
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This is really, really true I think.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I entered a competitive bidding situation to design and build a video/audio production facility for a large corporate client who was about to accept another bidder. Initially, I was only asked as a trusted expert to vet that bid. When I saw it, I felt it was deficient in a number of ways, and suggested that I might bid competitively myself, and they agreed.

The other guy's bid was a fairly simple Excel document describing equipment, materials and labor with itemized and bottom line dollar amounts. What did I add?

Pictures...

I photographed the site, obtained copies of the floorplans, then used that information as a basis for about a dozen 3D CGI color renderings I created in a simple interior design program I bought for $80 ("Live Interior 3D"). Of course, I also included equipment and cost lists in text form in the bid. The renderings showed multiple views/angles of all of the spaces and all of the equipment, and included human figures using the camera, actors on set, etc. I got many of the app-compatible images/models I used for free on the internet.

The result?

According to what I could gather, I simply blew the other bidder out of the water, and I am *100% certain* that it was *100%* because of the pictures. How do I know that? Because it became apparent near the end of the construction process that the person who approved the deal *had never read what was in the lists of equipment*. He evidently only looked at two things: the pictures and the budget. The latter though, was stipulated in advance, so really, the *only* thing that he paid attention to was the pictures. This greatly surprised me when I realized it - how could he be so remiss in doing his 'due diligence' where the other details were concerned?

The simple answer seems to be that he really didn't understand what much of the equipment might or might not be about, but he 'got' the pictures, big-time. So, compared to the other guy's spreadsheet-only approach, well...it was a slam-dunk.

So...eighty bucks (and a considerable amount of time creating the renderings, for which I was substantially compensated once I won the bid) made all the difference. Literally *all* the difference...
 
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Sneakle said:
For those who are studying the process: the script is everything.
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Truer words were never spoken.

And at an even more fundamental level, the story that underlies the script. Without a *great* story, turned into a *great* script, you are quite simply wasting your time and money making a film. This is the exact point that the '99% of all indie films fail' reality proves most resoundingly.

IMHO, of course...
 
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Ted, you're right about pictures making a big difference. I make business pitches against competitors who come in with a sleek powerpoint presentation. I come with photos and graphics mounted 12 x 18 on foam core boards. Corporate folks suffer from powerpoint fatigue and they love to have something they can hold in their hands and pass around. And I leave the boards so they're propped up in the office staring at them until they make up their minds.
 
Screenwriters Terry Rossio and Ted Elliott had similar observations about their pitching style in an article on their excellent wordplayer.com website:

Rather than simply pitching a story/script/movie idea in the usual way (basically verbally), they brought in large bulletin boards covered in index cards on which the basic script ideas were laid out sequentially (and moveably), in three acts, scene by scene. They'd put the board up on an easel and pitch the idea while the studio reps could *see* exactly what they were talking about. If a question came up about a detail, there it was on one of the cards. Cards could be removed, re-ordered, added, etc. According to them this was extremely well received by the people involved (who explicitly said so), presumably for the same reasons as you and I have found in our efforts.
 
Ted Spencer said:
Truer words were never spoken.

And at an even more fundamental level, the story that underlies the script. Without a *great* story, turned into a *great* script, you are quite simply wasting your time and money making a film. This is the exact point that the '99% of all indie films fail' reality proves most resoundingly.

IMHO, of course...
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I agree with that. There are a lot of places along the way, seriously probably 1,000 different hurdles, where your film can fail. But the script / story process is free, and while it may be the toughest in the sense that really good writing is tough, it's also the most essential because from there anything is possible. You can get people excited about your story and your film even with a small budget.

Sadly, most scripts start something like this, "Well my uncle Joe was really interesting I should write a story about him..." or "How could I make a film like Paranormal Activity / Blair Witch, that kind of movie is popular, I could make it for $25,000 and be a millionaire!" That... is not a good idea. lol
 
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