Frustration Galore

[ptalsky]

I learned after my very first project to insist on sound checks before we shoot if we're running directly into the camera. On that first shoot, we went out and were tooling along, gathering sound from three lectros and a boom and we never did a sound check (though I had asked the director several times to please review what I was doing, since it was my first time.....he didn't).

Needless to say, most of the audio was being clipped for some reason, and about 50 percent of it was unusable, and had to be ADR'ed.

This is another reason I insist on using my own equipment. I have actually even waived my rental fee once (but not my day rate) when they insisted I use their equipment instead of mine....their shotgun was a Sennheiser ME66, and you all know my feelings about that mic, so I said it was my equipment or nothing.

Anyway, it was good to learn the lesson very early.

Phil

 

[Noiz2]

Fellas-
...
Hey Scott. Those BG tracks...are they ones that can be purchased somewhere/rented or is it just something people accumulate/record themselves? Should we save money for the recorder or put it into Foley and buy the DeNoiser?

I went to digidesigns page and tried some other research on Pro Tools, but I'm even more confused now then when I started. I know it's the standard, but it seems like there are different systems/software? I work on a mac.

Is this any help to me? http://www.transom.org/tools/editing_mixing/20010416.gettingstarted.jtowne.html

Well first something that I'm sure Oleg would also agree on (though???) is that you would probably be better off investing in a sound person who is good at what they do rather than trying to buy and leard equiptment. Unless sound is what you want to do.

Transom.org has some useful info but it is a radio group and that is not quite the same as film so you have to be careful about the advice.

All DAW's (ProTools, Nuendo etc) have a pretty steep learning curve. It's a diferent way of working from almost any experience you might have in a non DAW app. It looks sort of like a NLE but there are some diferences that make moving back and forth not as smooth as one would think. I would not recomend diving in unless that is a direction you want to go. It also gets expensive quick.

THere are a bunch of PT systems. Up till recently having a non TDM system was a big drawback for post work but that has changed a bit. To get started with a TDM system you are looking at close to $20,000 (once you add in all the little necesities). But you can get a Digi 002 rack for under $1,500 and do a lot of post. To get serious you really need the DV toolkit for another $1,300, and you need a fast computer but that is still a whole lot less than the $50K+ I have sunk into PT and etceteras.

If you want to go that route you should also concider getting a second monitor for the computer and afirewire DV to NTSC (or PAL) converter or card and you will need a video monitor. THen your going to need decent speakers, lots of drive space. The list pretty much never ends. BUt for $4-5K you can get a pretty decent starter system. The M-Audio version of protools wont work with the DV toolkit so it's not a great choice. The M-Box is probably not going to be enough hardware for you but? One thing that is pretty good about Digi is that you can trade up and get a lot of your investment back by trading in your old system. So you could try an M-Box and move to the 002 for like $800 more if you need to.

Where to get sounds?
THe best way is to record them. But of course that requires a recording rig and more$$$$$ There are lots of FX libraries some are pretty good but they generally wont have exactly what you need so you still have to modify them in some way. The other down side is that everyone has those same sounds so they tend to get used a lot, something most people don't notice but it tends to bug sound editors. And you can get sounds from other sound editors. It helps if you have some recordings to trade but as a rule sound editors are pretty generous with their libraries. You would think that they would get very proprietary (and some are) but really sounds are just a tool and it's more about how you use them.

I'm not sure where you are nut I would try to avoid buying anything that you don't know you will use in the future. So I would not buy a denoiser ti you know you need one and even then unless your setting up a post facility I would probably try to find a way to borrow what you need. For instance many plugins have a demo period. If you need a noise reducer get a demo and see if it does what you need. Some demos are fully functional for a week or two and if you plan right that maybe enough time to get through this project.
SK

 

[Oleg 2]

Kind and gentle Oleg,

I guess were even then because I fired you for not slating...;~)
I pretty much agree (and why I did a fair amount of free post and ADR for them). My only excuse (and not a great one) is that they didn't want me to bring anything. They had all the equipt and they di9ctated the set up. So I didn't have an extension because I didn't have my bag. They couldn't fire me after the first take since they didn't rreview anything till after the second setup.

Now while I work on fairly respectable shows in post, production isn't much of my life. So I tend to get low budget run and gun types of shoots.

However in post I have seen a number of cases of really crappy sound that came from direct to camera shoots. On all that also had a feed to an external recorder the sound on the recorder was much better.
So my gross error aside I still think it's a bad idea to not have a seperate recorder.

Unemployed in california...
SK

as i slated befor- the slate is useless if you know how to deal with tc ( not to mention it save alot of $$$ people like you take it as extra hours work

about why the recorders in the bag usially have better quality ( lets say the truth - have less unprecitable overloading or really low levels )
probably because these "very good " soundmixers who dont know **** how to deal whith cameras .
poor knowledge of camera limitations doesnt do the external recorder bring better sound ( im not talking about better resolution 24 bit or better preamp ,assuming both taking the line level from the same mixer )
not to mention the assholes even dont check what they record assuming they have the same on the recorder - then you have to deal whith unpleasant surprises in the editing

 

[Oleg 2]

Dud,

I am a profesional ass, but an amature production recordist. Just in case you missed the other times I have said this, I work in post and do a few production gigs. And as I mentioned before I was not using any of my own equiptment on this. My production rig is pretty basic since it is used 99% for FX recording, but I do have about 200 feet of mic cable and headphone extensions. At the moment most of my investment is in post gear, my production equiptment is an evolving entity. And it probably wont grow that fast since production is a very SMALL part of my work and I have a very substancial investment in equiptment geared to post and that leaves not too much for production.

coming to work without knowledge what they are doing doesnt make any one good
you dont have to bring your gear - just tell them what you need, from that point its really not your problem

 

[Noiz2]

coming to work without knowledge what they are doing doesnt make any one good
you dont have to bring your gear - just tell them what you need, from that point its really not your problem

Until you show up and it's not what is needed. And we both know that while that may make it not your fault it will always be your problem...

So can we get back on topic. I'm more than willing to slap my hand, I would not have brought my stupid mistake up if I wasn't willing to own up to making a stupid mistake. I'm sure long ago once upon a time you probably also made a stupid mistake. If your trying to point out that you are a better production mixer, you win. I assume you are a much better production mixer than I am. However this thread was started by someone who is probably not a much better production mixer than I am and he is probably more likley than you are to make a stupid mistake. So my experience may be of some use to him.

I don't get paid any extra to have to deal with poorly documented production recordings. I don't do dialog, except on low budget epics and that's usually on some flat fee, so I could care less as an editor. But as a supervisor I care a bunch because that poor documentation costs me time and money. So actually I like slates because it saves money not the other way around. And while I'm sure you have much more production experience than I, I doubt very much that you have anywhere near the post experience that I do. You can claim it saves money in production (and you are probably right) but don't tell me it saves time and money in post because that is simply not true. Whether more money is saved than lost is arguable but you probably win on that one also since there are a lot of people on the set with the clock ticking. But then why slate at all? It will save time in production if you just rroll whenever, in fact why record sound at all? Things will go so much faster if the director can talk to the actors during a take. A number of very fine films were made that way, probably saved some money also. I don't think money is always the bottom line - and that comming from an American!
Cheers
SK

 

[Oleg 2]

ok you won - you can continue whith the slates

i just pointed that human ignorence from the right way working with camera bring people recording double system - what make them loose money by buying unnessarily equip and then since they dont really know what is the best way to deal with to loose money in the post trying to synchronize the stuff

 

[Noiz2]

ok you won - you can continue whith the slates

i just pointed that human ignorence from the right way working with camera bring people recording double system - what make them loose money by buying unnessarily equip and then since they dont really know what is the best way to deal with to loose money in the post trying to synchronize the stuff

That I agree with 100%. Or in different words there is a great quote from Edwin Howard Armstron, the guy who pretty much created broadcasting, "It ain't ignorance that causes all the troubles in this world, it's the things that people know that ain't so"

SK

 

[CineMischief]

Man, you cats are good. Thanks for all the help!

I guess I'm coming from knowing how important good sound is (or rather, knowing how bad crap sound kills your film) and wanting to achieve that on a consistent basis. Our production company is looking into buying equipment because we're looking at things longer term than just the next production. After X amount of shorts/features we could have bought some essential equipment for the price of having to rent for each one. Basically, there is a certain quality threshold that is unacceptable an I want to make sure we're not relying on other people in order to maintain that.

After reading everyone's posts, it's daunting to try and be a self-sufficient entity when viewing the costs of lights, accessories, audio, etc. Something has to suffer and I don't want it to be the audio. But we ain't got 20 G's to put into Pro Tools right now (Thanks for all the awesome info on that Scott).

Assuming the sound guy we hired knows what he's doing, we're using a mixer, 416, Oktava, record to camera AND the Tascam HD-P2, have wind protection, edit in FCP, and maybe download some of the demo programs (good places to start?)...are we in pretty good shape here? I know there are other variables, and we're scrimping on some things, but might this be a wise route to go if we're looking to get into festivals and have above average to good sound?

Again, sorry if I'm beating this thing, but I have a few days only to work this out. As always, any info is much appreciated.

Besties.

P.S. Oleg: Hope Chelsea drop points against Bolton this weekend and maybe ManUtd can pinch another title!!!!

 

[Oleg 2]

you can trade the the hd-2 for couple of wierless mics which make more sense for every production .
i was not touch tascam anyway since it is cripple tc device , you will need external generator to synchronize that whith your camera which doent have tc out to work without clapping every shot ,more money for nothing -less money to the real stuff
dont buy anything you dont need it badly for this movie if you will need external recorder for the next buy it later - probably there will something better and cheaper on your next movie
catch Chelsea this year - dont think so - next year defineatly

c

 

[marquee]

Taking a break from doing taxes. All I can say is Noiz2 or Scott Koue is a joke. He claims he is a professional. Look at his credits. I am embarassed for you. This is your day job????? You are not even mediocre. Stick with your behringer mixers. What professional uses a mix pre on the job?

Audio is one small portion of my job and do it mostly for hobby and necessity. Look at your post credits. Just sad.

 

[Oleg 2]

sorry but this is most idiotic statements someone did fart here - what does the mix pre or credits have to do with being professional .

every peace of equipment is professional if it bring money and you know its limitations and dont cheat anyone by saying it could do more then it can.

credits - who need credits -i need a pay check and on the gigs i do i have 3 times more for single day then some stupid who work for pi nuts and "credit "
( by the way i have twice best sound in israelly full length movie , credit for the best drama and credit for the best documentary , my last heavy credit is 5 years old since then i prefer no credits and better car then credits and empty pockets, sorry no one call you here if you have or not have creditsand better you forget about hollywood ferry tails this is the real world.
lets say if you sleep with producer daughter/sun /him self you have more credit then you have 2 pages on imbd list :- ))

most of my credits dont show in the last few years since iam doing mostly commercials whith budgets that covers 50% of the low budget gigs discussed on that forum ( whith small exception- now i eat **** on 13 chapters for tv ,10 pages a day hd direct to camera because the producer is a friend of min , he pays me **** and i dont enjoy - but it what i call pay deaths to the past and if you ask me i was more pleased to do it whithout my name on that one and get better money )

most of my "high end" gigs i can do with mix pre and only one thing that stops me is "keeping some high end image " in front the production company ( yea- i b.ull.sh.it them ) and 25 idiots around i need to supply them audio feeds .

but you are right on one thing - you are hobbyist and better stay there

 

[Noiz2]

Thank you Oleg, pretty much summed up what I would say, but it sounds better from you.

marquee. I'm not sure what your talking about. As mentioned credits are a strange thing. A lot of times they aren't reported even in features, pretty much never in ads. But they are also a bit BS because some folks who worked a lot on a project get no credit and some who were never there show up in the crawl. You would probably know this if you actually worked in the field. All that said I am quite proud of 99% of the projects I've worked on so I'm not sure what your problem is. And for the record I don't actually own a Behringer mixer. I was passing on information given to me by a respected production mixer who was quite active on the CAS (Cinema Audio Society) board. He had about 50 years of experience and I'm sure his credits would even qualify him in your eyes as someone who had your permission to keep working.

Now I know from some of your other posts that your a bookkeeper of sorts who worked(s) in the hotel biz. If you want to go around trashing peoples credentials then maybe you should have the balls to at least use your own name.