morgan_moore
Major Contributor
Indeed the 200w odd LEDs make this a goer for table top - a biker still need a sunny day or a row of HMI
Freefly Systems Camera Launch | Wednesday, October 7th @ 10 am
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NorBro
Major Contributor
Inexpensive powerful lights aren't a problem in 2020.
And if you want to nitpick again then the low DR will be a problem outside unless the lighting conditions are perfect (usually meaning less/controlled light).
And if someone was really ambitious enough then they can also shoot their food and drink outside with assistance.
And why are we now challenging random opinions about what someone may use a camera for?
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Fair enough, guys. I concede the point - you could shoot food and beverage with it and it lowers the cost of entry.
The food/bev photographer whose videos I edit now that he's started doing video is used to working with mighty strobes and numerous effects happening simultaneously. It's been a stretch for him to use continuous lights and get enough level with an fs700 and now a raven at only 240fps, and he shoots small tabletop setups, so that's what I've been thinking of in comparison. He's also used to a lot of DR, so he'd need to worry about his levels even more
The food/bev photographer whose videos I edit now that he's started doing video is used to working with mighty strobes and numerous effects happening simultaneously. It's been a stretch for him to use continuous lights and get enough level with an fs700 and now a raven at only 240fps, and he shoots small tabletop setups, so that's what I've been thinking of in comparison. He's also used to a lot of DR, so he'd need to worry about his levels even more
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ahalpert
Major Contributor
Yes the DR would be an issue outside but not if you're willing to blow out the sky. You should have enough DR to expose the subject properly. But if you're shooting falling strawberries inside, ,you have to provide the fill yourself and now you need 2 stops brighter fill
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Isn't rec709 only 7ish stops? And this is 10+? I bet it would be enough. Anyway, if it looks as good as sports broadcasts then it could have wide applications
NorBro
Major Contributor
If you watch enough sports (I think you mentioned you don't at all), you'll see tons of overexposure. They cut around it and fight it and work the iris consistently.
Sometimes on Sunday's 1pm NFL games, you'll see parts of the broadcast frame blown out because they have no choice (or the players are very dark in the shaded area they are on the field at that time). You'll also see it in replays. It's adjusted many times during game play, live.
It's a struggle in extremely bright days.
Sometimes on Sunday's 1pm NFL games, you'll see parts of the broadcast frame blown out because they have no choice (or the players are very dark in the shaded area they are on the field at that time). You'll also see it in replays. It's adjusted many times during game play, live.
It's a struggle in extremely bright days.
ReelFilmGeek
Well-known member
So far I'm happy with what I've seen at the price point. I almost bought a Phantom HD Gold this year for 5k USD but held off due to the fact if somethin went wrong there is no longer any support for it. For 10k this is tempting and honestly I'm debating on buying it as I know I'd get a shoot from one client right off the bat for just owning it. Then factor in rentals between friends who also shoot it might make financial sense. My biggest question is how likely is it the local rental shops pick it up and how much they will charge to rent it.
Also I don't have experince with renting gear outside of people I trust, but do some people buy gear and then partner with rental houses to rent it out? Might be worth considering that.
Also I don't have experince with renting gear outside of people I trust, but do some people buy gear and then partner with rental houses to rent it out? Might be worth considering that.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Doesn't that just prove my point about the lower standards for sports highlights? And aren't they shooting rec709?
My GH5 has about 10 stops and I shot some sports and plenty of reflective things. My only issues were skies, clouds, sun, windows. Everything else was ok
NorBro
Major Contributor
I'm sure some cameras use Rec709. And a lot of dedicated staffers are using AMIRAs (in Log C).
Shooting extremely high frame rates for sports is very content-driven. There is only so much creative content you can watch at 240+ frames. Most of the time it is specifically used for commercials and/or to enforce rules (with fixed cameras).
Like what exactly are you going to do with random live game footage? I guess you can make a cool Vimeo video to show your friends.
As far as low-standards...even if they shot in LOG they would struggle in those aforementioned scenarios because we are talking about very high stop differences (16-18-20+).
And you shooting sports and what not, if you didn't experience it then the DR was held in check. Perfectly doable as all conditions aren't challenging. But you'd know when they were.
Shooting extremely high frame rates for sports is very content-driven. There is only so much creative content you can watch at 240+ frames. Most of the time it is specifically used for commercials and/or to enforce rules (with fixed cameras).
Like what exactly are you going to do with random live game footage? I guess you can make a cool Vimeo video to show your friends.
As far as low-standards...even if they shot in LOG they would struggle in those aforementioned scenarios because we are talking about very high stop differences (16-18-20+).
And you shooting sports and what not, if you didn't experience it then the DR was held in check. Perfectly doable as all conditions aren't challenging. But you'd know when they were.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Hold on - are they or are they not shooting sports broadcasts with contrasty standard profiles that dont get tweaked before they're broadcast?
It's so easy for me to imagine a team using these for highlight reel or the broadcaster for bumpers/trailers
I also think that you're overestimating the dynamic range of the scene especially since you don't really need to shoot a wide shot in such slow motion
It's so easy for me to imagine a team using these for highlight reel or the broadcaster for bumpers/trailers
I also think that you're overestimating the dynamic range of the scene especially since you don't really need to shoot a wide shot in such slow motion
NorBro
Major Contributor
You just don't have the experience to understand...even in mid-shots/close-ups the helmets, the jerseys, the background could be blown out in unfavorable conditions.
Watch more sports instead of Star Trek, lol.
NorBro
Major Contributor
The broadcasts with just the game footage and random b-roll (crowds, coaches/players on the bench, etc) have always been filmed with big studio cameras and several random shoulder cameras out on the field (tethered to the production truck).
Whether or not this footage goes through a coloring process before it hits the air, I don't know. I imagine it does (or of course could) even though all of the cameras are matched up internally to perfection (or should be).
Years ago, 100% Rec709.
Today, IDK. There are different options in cameras these days that provide a balance between DR and Rec709. Something like Blackmagic "Extended" which is marketed on their website towards sports. Do the Canon/Sony/Panasonic broadcast cameras have something like this? IDK, maybe. Wider dynamic range profiles.
And there's also HDR production and possibly even grading LOG over the air.
As far as promotional content, it depends on the sport and the difficulty of how it's play and its location.
With the NFL or even the NBA, almost anything you see on television in a commercial promoting a game (like TNF tonight) is most likely shot with AMIRAs from random angles. But for something like baseball, it could be a mix.
___
Here's the bottom-line to summarize this conversation because it's getting annoying, lol:
These high-speed cameras have very specific uses, as we know. You will certainly find uses for them in sports but mostly in national commercials promoting services or products [like dramatizing sports catches, hits, body movements, dirt in the air (if it's not done in post), etc].
Someone even mentioned some medical company the other month showing some slow-motion sports shots randomly as b-roll to promote their product. Most likely as a message of having more energy and/or happiness and "living your life".
But outside of these random shots for a commercial, they don't have much of a use.
Super HFRs in sports aren't an industry. They are an occasional project.
High-speed food and beverage is an entire industry. So when I said - IMO - the camera would be great for it, it wasn't open for debate. Of course there will be challenges. That's life.
But this is a $10,000 camera that opens up some amazing possibilities for a very interesting field with endless creativity.
Whether or not this footage goes through a coloring process before it hits the air, I don't know. I imagine it does (or of course could) even though all of the cameras are matched up internally to perfection (or should be).
Years ago, 100% Rec709.
Today, IDK. There are different options in cameras these days that provide a balance between DR and Rec709. Something like Blackmagic "Extended" which is marketed on their website towards sports. Do the Canon/Sony/Panasonic broadcast cameras have something like this? IDK, maybe. Wider dynamic range profiles.
And there's also HDR production and possibly even grading LOG over the air.
As far as promotional content, it depends on the sport and the difficulty of how it's play and its location.
With the NFL or even the NBA, almost anything you see on television in a commercial promoting a game (like TNF tonight) is most likely shot with AMIRAs from random angles. But for something like baseball, it could be a mix.
___
Here's the bottom-line to summarize this conversation because it's getting annoying, lol:
These high-speed cameras have very specific uses, as we know. You will certainly find uses for them in sports but mostly in national commercials promoting services or products [like dramatizing sports catches, hits, body movements, dirt in the air (if it's not done in post), etc].
Someone even mentioned some medical company the other month showing some slow-motion sports shots randomly as b-roll to promote their product. Most likely as a message of having more energy and/or happiness and "living your life".
But outside of these random shots for a commercial, they don't have much of a use.
Super HFRs in sports aren't an industry. They are an occasional project.
High-speed food and beverage is an entire industry. So when I said - IMO - the camera would be great for it, it wasn't open for debate. Of course there will be challenges. That's life.
But this is a $10,000 camera that opens up some amazing possibilities for a very interesting field with endless creativity.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Sure - look, my point is mainly that it's far more acceptable to blow stuff out in sports where the product is not beauty per se, or ar least beauty is secondary to clarity of action. Food and beverage is total beauty. And there are also lots of scenarios in sports that do not challenge the DR, including night games. And you could use a wider stop than tabletop and the lighting is done for you. And I could see lower tier sports (college, high school) taking advantage.
Wildlife probably between those two categories.
I dont think this opens up possibilities for food and beverage unless you mean for those who cant afford phantom then sure
ahalpert
Major Contributor
A cheaper price doesn't technically create new possibilities, it just broadens access. a new technology like robotic arms, a higher than currently available fps camera, or a high speed camera that could shoot in moonlight would make possible shots that were previously impossible. And yes, I'm just being very literal. Because I am. I agree that it opens up possibilities for more people to do high speed, and we'll probably see a lot of low quality food/beverage footage coming out as a result of people shooting with inadequate light and style. And some of those people may make it big who otherwise would not have. And some indy music videos and low budget commercials will have some cool shots they couldn't have afforded before. I'm all for the camera, I just poke holes.
But definitely the type of thing where internet food blogs and channels that publish daily with 1- or 2-light set-ups on recipes could buy a few serious fixtures and get the same simple look but slow mo berries falling in or whatever
The food/beverage guy I work with couldn't take advantage of this camera without investing tens of thousands more in lighting because he'd be moving to a slower, lower DR camera and a higher shutter speed
But definitely the type of thing where internet food blogs and channels that publish daily with 1- or 2-light set-ups on recipes could buy a few serious fixtures and get the same simple look but slow mo berries falling in or whatever
The food/beverage guy I work with couldn't take advantage of this camera without investing tens of thousands more in lighting because he'd be moving to a slower, lower DR camera and a higher shutter speed
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I feel like controlled studio lighting situations are situations where you need the least dynamic range from a camera because you can easily (not needing a big lighting budget) light the contrast within the dynamic range of the camera since you have full control of the lighting.
This. Studio stuff doesn't need much DR at all because you have complete control.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
Generally true, but the guy I work with loves the extra DR for retaining specular highlights off glass, etc. In any case, if he's moving from a system with 13 stops where he's using all the DR to a system with 11, he will need to fill 2 stops higher
You get less DR in studio settings because your fill light isn't pathetically weak compared to your key light. Which, in this context, means that your fill lights will also have to be pretty expensive, not just your key kight
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