foreground/background displacement from LOTR

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escaped_light

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There is a part in Lord of the Rings, where Frodo hears the Dark Riders approaching (right near the beginning of the film), and there is a very dramatic effect they use, in which the foreground (Frodo) and the background seem to shift in different respects. With the look of terror on Frodo's face and that effect, I was just like :o! I love that effect, of course in moderation, and haven't noticed it used in many films. Does anyone know what scene I'm talking about?

I've been obsessed with how that actually worked ever since I saw Lord of the Rings:FR. I thought that maybe they had Frodo standing on some kind of Dolly or something (mind you, I don't have a video camera yet, so I couldn't experiment with it). One day it hit me while using my Digital Still Camera, and playing around with the zoom; move the camera back and zoom in. To say the least, it worked when I pluged my cam into the TV and tested it out. I was very giddy with excitement!

Of course, in order to look good, the camera movement has to be pretty on par with the zoom, or you can tell that the camera is moving. Has anyone used this effect before, and if so, any tips for making it look good? Also, does anyone have ANY idea what that effect is called? (I guess I'll just call it foreground/background displacement :-/ until I find out).

Robert
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

Hey.. love those Dark riders.. I worked with one of those riders on the last feature I worked.. wicked guy.

Anyways, its refered to as the hitchcock shot or zoom, because that is where i believe it originated. The actual technical word for it is the Vertigo effect, I remember some guy I was talking to called it something else like a combozoom or something.. but if you say hitchcock effect everyone will know what you are talking about.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

i'm not too sure what it's called but i think it's called a squeeze zoom or something. Pretty much your playing with perspective...as you may notice on the wide angle side of the lens the objects in the f.g. seem far away from the b.g. whereas in telephoto the two seem "squeezed" closer together.
you've pretty much figured out how to pull off this shot. you either dolly in and zoom out at eh same time or dolly out and zoom in at the same time. what will happen is that the backround will move into the subject or distance itself from the subject. the key in pulling this off well is to make sure that the framing of your subject doesn't change. so if you have him on lets say a medium shot when dollying out make sure that he remains on that same medium shot that's why you've got to zoom in really smoothly.
The film in which i saw it done incredibly well is in Goodfellas....there's a scene where Liotta goes to meet Deniro in the restaurant and he's unsure wether Deniro wants to kill him or not (something like that) but anyhow...they're sitting at the window and you slowly see the buildings across the street coming in to them really slowly....this was done to express the way he was feeling and it was done so seamlessly the average audience doesn't even notice it. I caught it of course and watched the scene with a few differenct "non film" people and they never noticed it...even after i told them look out for something weird in this scene and let me know what you see....its only when i rewound and showed them that they were like "holy sh*t" that's what i call good filmmaking. anyways...i'm forget what its called but i think it's squeeze zoom or something like that...i'm sure someone on the board can tell you.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

I think the effect was pionnered by A. Hitchcock. Not sure what it's called, perhaps the Hitchcock effect? Anyway, I'll look it up tonight when I get home. Unless someone beats me to the punch first.

The best way to get good results is to use a steady dolly, and practice, practice, practice.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

i guess zoomforce was faster at the draw.... :-[
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

Damn! I really need to take some speed typing lessons. ;D
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

[quote author=John_Hudson link=board=news;num=1070478283;start=0#6 date=12/03/03 at 11:39:33]lotr KICKS ASS.  Just thought I'd say that.[/quote]

Yes, yes it does! I would have loved to work (anywere) on that film (even though I'm actually an actor).

I think that even though the audience may not notice the effect, they are most likely to feel it; I think it's one of those things that acts on a subconcious level. I know a lot of people who were pretty freaked by that scene; the cinematography in the scene really makes it dramatic, even though most people don't pick out that stuff.

Thanks for the responses. As soon as I get my DVX-100, I'm going to experiment with it.

Robert
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

I've always called it the "Vertigo shot." It was in fact pioneered by Hitchcock on Vertigo, to convey Jimmy Stewart's acrophobia. It has been used countless times in countless films, but a few worth noting:

There's a classic use of it in Jaws on the beach. There's also one early on in ET overlooking the town, if I remember correctly.

The Goodfellas one is without compare. SO slow!

Quiz Show has one in the quiz booth that I've always liked.

And a few "non-traditional" ones: About a Boy has something like one in a shot reverse shot... every time they cut back to Hugh Grant they are on a longer lens and further away... it actually makes a nice effect. But my favorite one of all is in The Lion King, just before Mufasa dies, when Simba realizes the stampede is coming. An animated Vertigo shot is an interesting thing, and a good thing to analyze to get a good idea of what goes on optically in the effect.

In any case, the key is having a dolly grip that can consistently match the speed of your zoom. Though you still get a cool effect when one element is faster than the other, it is best when they are in sync. My guess is that they use motion control to do it nowadays.

Will
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

Today, many high-end productions are using computers to deliver a perfect dolly/zoom ratio when doing this effect (though I'm not sure this is a case in LOTR).

I haven't had my DVX100E long, but I have experimented with this. The best method I've found is to creep in the zoom using the servo motor, and then make markings on the surface you're moving the dolly on against the time you start zooming out, much like this:

............| 2 sec.....| 1 sec.....| Start
<-- OO< ================= [o]
....Camera.......Dolly track.....Focal point

It may take many takes in the setup, but when you get the timings right it can end up spot-on more or less every time - all because the servo zooming time will never change (just make sure you use a stopwatch with a loud beep and a decent dolly pusher). There is a down side to using the servo zoom on a DVX100 though - you can't get a gradual start/stop which can upset a few of us (like me!).
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

I watched LOTR:TT the other day for the second time and I may be going crazy, but it seemed to me that the camera moves and the way it is put together in the beginning seemed almost cheesy to me. It seemed as if I replaced Frodo with a few teen actors and made sauron and sauromon a guy in a mask with a chainsaw it'd just be a really cheesy summer slasher flick. Don't get me wrong, I really like alot of it, but it bugged me for some reason...
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

oh, and I always heard that camera move refered to as the JAWS effect, but hitchcock definitely did it first
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

A colleague of mine always refers to it as the JAWS effect.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

Definitley a HITCHCOCK move. Yes, Spielberg had it in JAWS, but HITCH did that move back in the 60's. I like the shot, but it is often overused and it stands out so much that when people see it, they think, "oh, jaws" or "oh hitchcock."

Maybe it's time for one of us to put a new spin on it?
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

yes.. much like the MAtrix effect nowadays.. I bet they will be overusing that for the next 30 years.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

I would never do the MATRIX in a film by me. NO way. The first thing anyone who saw it would say is "Oooohh, matrix." I might do a lil HITCHJAWS action, but it will be sooooooooo subtle when i do it and hell, i might try and think of a way to do a different spin.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

How could I have forgotten: Road to Perdition has a GREAT one... the shot that introduces Jude Law... there are tons of vertical posts in the foreground that shift during the shot... it is terrific.

The effect may be "over-used" but it still has applications if used properly and subtly.

Will
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

i have an instructional camera technique video which calls it the Jaws effect. It's really cool, and really easy do. I think you just zoom out while moving closer to the subject.
 
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It's definitley a matter of individual choice. Me? I see it, and I think HITCHJAWS and it takes me right out of the picture. Suddenly I'm not watching "Under the Bridge". I feel transported back to Roy Schieder and that poor little little Alex Kitner.

Mayor Vaughn: Fellows, let's be reasonable, huh? This is not the time or the place to perform some kind of a half-assed autopsy on a fish... And I'm not going to stand here and see that thing cut open and see that little Kintner boy spill out all over the dock!

Disclaimer
BTW "UNDER THE BRIDGE" is a fictional title I made up.
 
Re: foreground/background displacement from LOTR

We always called it The Jaws Shot (from Roy Scheider sitting on the beach when the shark attacks) but it was Hitchcock in "Vertigo" to first use it.

It's also been called a Zolly (for zoom/dolly).

It is usually one of the hallmarks of the Bad Student Film (as defined by filmmaker.com's DUMPS (for Directing Unsuccessful Motion Picture Shorts). Required reading:
http://filmmaker.com/DUMPS.html

In my first short films, I did 13 out of the 20 before finding this list. :o
 
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