For low budget features - Do you pay your *entire* cast/crew or only some of them?

[Boon]

You can make a feature film entirely by yourself?

I was just responding to what you wrote "If you want to create art, paint, sculpt, or write."
painting, sculpting and writing, isn't what we do in filmmaking?
The process of filmmaking is both art and industry.

I don't see the relevance in your question.

 

[Gary Huff]

Because you can do all three things alone, by yourself, without having to resort to the technical know how and paid equipment of third party individuals like you have to do to craft a feature film.

 

[Boon]

I'm afraid I didn't make any of those claims. I only wrote 2 sentences in this thread in response to what you said.

You wrote
"If you want to create art, paint, sculpt, or write."

I response
"painting, sculpting and writing, isn't what we do in filmmaking?
The process of filmmaking is both art and industry."

Anyway, we have definitely OT. Apologies.
Apologies too, cause English is not my native language.

 

[Patryk_Rebisz]

I would absolutely rather hire a passionate professional than a passionate amateur. That's a no-brainer, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

But I don't think paid crew are automatically passionate. I've seen otherwise, many times. Passion is defined as, "strong and barely controllable emotion." That's what I'm talking about.

The other word I'm being misunderstood about is "technical." Patryk, in those 10 years you've no doubt gained some technical skill, but moreso I'd hope you've gained wisdom, experience, and artistry. That part is what matters more. Technical skills, as I define them, are 'explicit knowledge' as opposed to 'tacit knowledge.' You can read technical skills, package them as instruction manuals, intellectualize them. All of this is unimportant and cheap in the grand scheme of creating art.

With all due respect you sound like someone who thinks that when hiring a DP you are getting a guy who watched youtube instructional video about 3-point lighting. If this is how you perceive professionals than there is a whole world of wonder for you to discover. You will find people who are technically savvy AND immerse themselves in literature AND philosophy AND psychology (both practical how to deal with people on the set and more esoteric) AND artistry of the craft AND...... And because of that NOT despite - they would be asking to be paid for their services. Your enthusiastic amateur will quickly burn out when 11th or 12th hour hits (and the paid people at least will be pretending that they still care about what you're envisioning because of OT).

 

[Gary Huff]

Drew, you really sound like you have absolutely zero respect for what it takes to become proficient in the technical side of the filmmaking process., nor do you realize that getting paid for one's work frees them creatively because they don't worry about their cost of living or having to pay off that gear that you'd require them to bring (because you probably can't afford the rental rates from TMS, Omega, and Gear).

if you want to play at being a filmmaker, that's all well and good and I wish you good luck with your crew of hobbyists. But please don't arrogantly assume you know what's up.

 

[Drew Ott]

With all due respect you sound like someone who thinks that when hiring a DP you are getting a guy who watched youtube instructional video about 3-point lighting. If this is how you perceive professionals than there is a whole world of wonder for you to discover. You will find people who are technically savvy AND immerse themselves in literature AND philosophy AND psychology (both practical how to deal with people on the set and more esoteric) AND artistry of the craft AND...... And because of that NOT despite - they would be asking to be paid for their services. Your enthusiastic amateur will quickly burn out when 11th or 12th hour hits (and the paid people at least will be pretending that they still care about what you're envisioning because of OT).

Not at all. I respect cinematographers immensely. Cinematography is an artform as noble and important as any artform can be. The part of a professional cinematographer that is immersed in art and feeling and emotion, is the part I value most. I don't value their technical skills as much as I value the part of them that is an artist. The technical skills are replaceable by the next guy, but the artistry is not.

 

[Drew Ott]

if you want to play at being a filmmaker, that's all well and good and I wish you good luck with your crew of hobbyists. But please don't arrogantly assume you know what's up.

You're a bully and I'm a pacifist. Good day.

 

[Gary Huff]

I don't value their technical skills as much as I value the part of them that is an artist. The technical skills are replaceable by the next guy, but the artistry is not.

Oh please. Do you even realize what you are writing?

"I admire a painter, not for their ability to actually paint, but for their artistry." If you cannot translate what is in your mind's eye onto the canvas (a "technical" skill) then you are not an artist...merely a dreamer.

And dreamers are a dime a dozen.

 

[jghenderson]

I can kind of understand what Drew is trying to say. I have met a fair share of people in the industry that have immense technical knowledge and experience, but whose "fire" has gone out. They are mostly in it just for the pay check, and don't seem to care about the "art" of what they are making. That of course does not mean they don't try hard and do good work, but I can understand why someone would prefer to work with people who are on fire and who just love movies to death and want to eat, sleep, and breathe filmmaking.

That being said, in the real world, sometimes you perhaps have to choose people who are less passionate if you really want to reach a certain level of production. For instance a gaffer that has his heart in the right place but doesn't even know what HMI's are, is not going to be able to compete with a 20 year vet that, while disgruntled, can light most scenes in their sleep.

Like I said, I completely understand wanting to work with passionate people, but in the real world, if you want to compete in any legitimate sense, you often have to be brutally practical.

 

[Zak Forsman]

To the OP. you can do it. I made a crime thriller shot in 24 locations over 36 days on a budget of less than $40,000. including me, this movie had a crew of six. forget the "professional vs amateur" debate. it doesn't mean anything on this scale. there are countless examples for and against and every one of them is a movie that trumps that debate with having been a good story, well told. I hired people who were proven in their skillset and passion. didn't hire anyone who only had one or the other. for the most part, I had worked with and for many of them before. so there was already a short-hand in the way we communicate. three of the crew were paid a flat amount for the duration of the shoot. nothing close to what they were worth, but enough to live on. myself, the producer and the editor were paid nothing. most of the cast was paid. we used the sag new media contract for added flexibility. and many of the actors took deferred pay that they'll receive when the movie starts making money. and I have very good reason to believe it will.

I met a lot of people along the way with a hundred reasons why I shouldn't do it. I am mindful of their words but frankly, the only people I like to take advice from are the ones who have the first-hand experience of doing what I want to do. because at this stage, the most important thing I need to be focused on is closing that gap between the movie I see in my head and my ability to execute it. and you only get there by doing it again and again and again. i'm of the mind that short-form storytelling and feature-length storytelling are different animals. and beyond the differences in tradecraft, there's the difference in the paths they take when they're finished, as well as who they might lead you to. my first directing experience was on a feature called Heart of Now. that movie opened doors with Magnolia, Sony Pictures Classics and a handful of top tier festivals that liked it enough to open up a direct line of communication so that anything I send in the future bypasses the general submission route. None of them took on the movie, mind you, but a relationship now exists. The shorts I made (both for DVX Fests, mind you) had a lot of success opening dialogue with fellow filmmakers, agencies, film bloggers. all of it is valuable, but the feature is what landed a distributor and it's the feature filmmaking that's advancing my chances at making a living from this, as well as leading to more movies getting made.

Now it's 2013 and I'm releasing Down and Dangerous. It's had its world premiere where we were the only movie to sell out multiple screenings thanks to strong word of mouth. And the movie is currently in the hands of Magnolia, Sony Pictures Classics, Millennium, Lionsgate, Drafthouse and a dozen more. Frankly, I'm not expecting any of them to pick the movie up for obvious reasons. It doesn't have stars. And despite the fact that our goal for this movie was to find financial support from friends, family and fans, and make it for them -- it's looking more and more like it will have a life beyond that. I released the trailer as a Kickstarter update and before i knew it, it was picked up by a ton of film blogs and garnering more views than I ever anticipated. And as of two weeks ago, we have an offer on the table from a company with a proven track record (and assurances from fellow filmmakers that they are reputable) and they project between $100,000 and $250,000 in sales over the first two years -- 30% from digital platforms like itunes and 70% from cable video-on-demand. and circling back, what really makes me happy is knowing that with a crowdfunded budget, there is no investor that needs to recoup his/her money before those deferred payments start happening. The people who backed us with financial donations gave us a tremendous gift, many saying they donated specifically because I said this movie was a chance for me to further my experience toward becoming a better storyteller. the fruits of their generosity is about to play out later this year when the movie they backed gets its release date. and the folks who worked on it can be proud of making something that people seem to like, for one reason or another. and we're all much closer to making a career out of filmmaking, and paying ourselves what we're worth from a real budget.