Firestore and Native Format

H

hatchmo

Active member
[This thread was inadvertently cross-posted. It now lives in DVX-100, as "Native Possible with Firestore?"]

You can’t perform a capture in the Native formats over FireWire, according to one post in this forum. If that's true, does that mean you cannot record native formats to the Firestore (FS-100)?
 
Last edited:
Not at this time, but I bet sooner or later, it is going to do it. Sometimes I hear the mice working late at night in the workshop...
 
What about unusual framerates? Are these considered 'native'? Sorry, I'm a little unclear on that part.
 
"native" means storing only those frames that are actually used in the proper filming of the scene.

The "non-native" modes mean storing 60 fps, regardless of how many are unique and distinct. So in a 30p recording, "native" mode would have 30 distinct frames, and only those 30 frames. In a "non-native" (aka "Over 60") recording, there would be 60 frames recorded, regardless of how many are distinct and unique. So that would mean each of the 30p frames is recorded twice.

So for unusual frame rates, a "native" 12fps recording would store 12 frames per second; an "over 60" recording would duplicate each of those frames 4 times so the net effect is each frame is stored 5 times.

"Over 60" came about because it's compatible with the tape system of DVCPRO-HD, where the tape deck (and firewire streaming) demand 60 frames per second regardless of how many are unique. That's the way the VariCam works.

"native" mode came about because the HVX doesn't use tape, it can record on the cards, and the cards are not restricted to requiring 60fps (the way the tape drive is).
 
Thanks for the response! So, just so I'm clear, you can record to the FS-100 at variable framerates; you'll just have to deal with the extra redundant data and interpret the footage to progressive frames after the fact, yes?
 
Yes, I use the FS-100 to do alternative frame rates all the time. I then use the DVCPRO-HD Frame Rate Converter in FCP to get my alternative frame rate footage to conform to the Sequence I'm working in.

But when you injest, it's all 60fps, you have to do the pull-down trick when you ingest it into your NLE.
 
So since the firestore records at 60fps regardless, it also uses up more memory when shooting under 60fps when compared to p2 correct? IE i shoot 30fps, on p2 it would take up half as much memory since it only records the native 30fps, whereas firestore would take up a full 60fps of memory even though you only needed 30 of the frames. Is that correct? So how many minutes of footage can a fs-100 store then? I believe a 4gb p2 card holds something like 8minutes of 720p footage correct?
 
One more question, isn't it true that both when recording to p2 or a firestore. The hvx will only record something like 2min clips at a time, instead of just making one file from record to stop, every 2min it starts a new file?. So when you go to edit you have to stich all the 2min clips together?
 
The point about writing Native Format files to any HDD is, as I understand it, the HVX200 does not call on the IEE1394 port at all. So there's not much the Firestore can do about it unless it learns to pick up from the P2 slot - which is what is being proposed for the Cineporter solution.
 
J5 squared said:
So since the firestore records at 60fps regardless, it also uses up more memory when shooting under 60fps when compared to p2 correct?
Click to expand...
Yes and no. Yes the FS always records 60 fps. No, in that the P2 card can also be configured to record that same way.

However, with the card you have the option of recording "native mode", as well as "over 60." The FS can only record "over 60."

IE i shoot 30fps, on p2 it would take up half as much memory since it only records the native 30fps, whereas firestore would take up a full 60fps of memory even though you only needed 30 of the frames. Is that correct?
Click to expand...
When recording in "native" mode, that is correct.

So how many minutes of footage can a fs-100 store then?
Click to expand...
About 100. Whereas if they'd figure out how to store the footage like "native mode" does, they could potentially store 250 minutes of 720/24p. That'd be over four hours of continuous recording.
 
J5 squared said:
The hvx will only record something like 2min clips at a time, instead of just making one file from record to stop, every 2min it starts a new file?.
Click to expand...
The HVX uses the FAT32 file format, which imposes a 4GB file size limit. So every 4GB it has to split the file. That means 4-minute chunks in 1080 mode, or 10-minute chunks in 720/24pN mode.

So when you go to edit you have to stich all the 2min clips together?
Click to expand...
That's up to your editor. If you're using a proper MXF-aware editor it'll handle all that for you.
 
So then really the only difference between the fs-100 and the cineporter is that the cineporter understands native and the cineporter comes in higher gb sizes? Correct? Because isn't that the only limitation that the firestore faces is that it must use the firewire drive and therefore is not capable of understanding native?
 
There are many differences in the design philosophy of the cineporter vs. the FS100. The FS100 is derived from the FireStore FS-4, whereas the cineporter is a from-the-ground-up design. The FS100 is designed with a fixed drive size and relies on the firewire connection, the CinePorter is designed to have different sizes and even multiple drives. The FS100 is undoubtedly much smaller than the cineporter.

Biggest difference is that the FS100 is available today, and the CinePorter won't be available for several months; probably not until around September or so according to the designers. So any CinePorter features should be thought of as tentative until we see them working in a finished product.

And the firestore isn't necessarily not capable of understanding native, it may just take a little effort on their part. For example, the camera doesn't output a firewire signal in "native" mode, but in "over 60" mode there are programs that can read and interpret the incoming data stream and strip out the duplicate frames upon capture (specifically, FCP and EDIUS Broadcast both do this). So even though the camera's not in "native" mode, the programs are recording "native mode" footage. I don't know if there's any compelling reason why the FS100 couldn't do the exact same thing; it would seem like a very simple fix to implement (and I say that as an ex-programmer; granted I don't know their software nor the capabilities of their processor, but if it can encode to MOV or AVI or RAW all on the fly, it certainly should be capable of looking at a one-bit flag and determining whether to discard the frame or not).
 
One that that really appeals to me still over the cineporter is that nearly all cameras right now have firewire output. So i can use the firestore on my dvx, i can grab a hvx and shoot away, i can pick up a sony cam and go with it. The p2 at this moment is still pretty restrictive. And since it would be possible for firestore to come out with an update that will allow it to record native, i think thats what i'll be going with. Thanks for all your info barry!
 
Well, I don't know that it's possible to upgrade it to record native; I just am thinking that it seems like it *should* be possible.

i don't know if the FS-100 can be modified to record HDV, that's an interesting question. It can record DV, of course, so yes you could use it with a DVX or another DV camera. If it could record HDV too, that would make it quite universal.
 
Barry_Green said:
Well, I don't know that it's possible to upgrade it to record native; I just am thinking that it seems like it *should* be possible.

i don't know if the FS-100 can be modified to record HDV, that's an interesting question. It can record DV, of course, so yes you could use it with a DVX or another DV camera. If it could record HDV too, that would make it quite universal.
Click to expand...

well maybe the sony is a stretch, but atleast its fairly universal in the panasonic world. Atleast compared to the strictly p2 cineporter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top