It seems that being able to offer the entire marketing/ad campaign for the client would be attractive, rather than just the video. I have heard that facebook marketing is no longer effective. In my case I would have to learn this side of things because you have to be able to show results for the client. Ideally it would be great to have a dedicated person on your team to focus on this aspect. Not the case with many of us, though. How many of you do it all?
Finding a niche in a crowded market - live events?
- Thread starter firehawk
- Start date
What are your thoughts on studio shooting? Larger green screen / white cyc wall?
Average Joe doesn't have a studio space to shoot controlled projects in.
Many people try to make do with poratable backdrops but those cannot replace being able to shoot a group or larger scale projects.
Could also be rented to video and photo people who need such as space but don't have one. But do they have the budget to rent your space?
It would be convenient to have the client come to you a well lit space to shoot rather than transport gear and set up at their place. Sometimes they want to try to shoot in a small boring dull office behind a desk. Setting up a place in your studio would look a lot better and be easier on you.
Group meetings could also be recorded in the studio rather than on location.
It's also easier to record products.
Thoughts?
Average Joe doesn't have a studio space to shoot controlled projects in.
Many people try to make do with poratable backdrops but those cannot replace being able to shoot a group or larger scale projects.
Could also be rented to video and photo people who need such as space but don't have one. But do they have the budget to rent your space?
It would be convenient to have the client come to you a well lit space to shoot rather than transport gear and set up at their place. Sometimes they want to try to shoot in a small boring dull office behind a desk. Setting up a place in your studio would look a lot better and be easier on you.
Group meetings could also be recorded in the studio rather than on location.
It's also easier to record products.
Thoughts?
puredrifting
Major Contributor
A lot of this depends on your market. I work in LA where stages are a dime a dozen and there is a plethora of pre-lit green screen stages, small and large, pricing is super competitive and there tons of options. If you are in a smaller market, you might have more luck in making a small stage economically viable. The challenge becomes cyc colors, every production will want somethning different, green screen, blue screen, white, black, painted colors. What about flats, would you have room and want to deal with flats or would this just be for basic interviews and perhaps a small office scene and that's it?
Studios are great, but keep in mind, air conditioning, sound (a real sound stage is a box within a box and is involved and in depth to design and execute). Lighting grid? What kind of lighting? Dimmer board? Props, monitors, director chairs, etc. The list goes on and on, even for a small stage.
Thank you puredrifting.
I was surprised in an earlier post to learn about the situation in LA and how rates are less than I had expected.
What are examples of rates for studios?
In my town there are dozens of people doing video but only one with a studio, and it's not all that large or tall.
I have no idea what reasonable studio rental rates would be.
Power, sound, insulation, air conditioning and all the rest are things I'm still looking into.
I was surprised in an earlier post to learn about the situation in LA and how rates are less than I had expected.
What are examples of rates for studios?
In my town there are dozens of people doing video but only one with a studio, and it's not all that large or tall.
I have no idea what reasonable studio rental rates would be.
Power, sound, insulation, air conditioning and all the rest are things I'm still looking into.
Run&Gun
Veteran
I was on a shoot with one of my audio guys last week and he starts getting texts from someone about a possible upcoming shoot. He sends them his rates for what they want to do and gets the reply that we've seen so many times before, "Your rates are higher than we pay in NY and LA". Guess what, Jack, you're not in NY or LA. The attitude is really pretty damn obnoxious.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I co-produced a project in Atlanta last year and I was surprised at how expensive crew and gear rates were there considering it's the new production Mecca of the South. Plenty of crew and infrastructure and one would think competition to drive rates down a bit. I am producing a shoot in November up in San Francisco and I know I am going to get really hosed on crew rates up there. I am DP and I will be driving up with my camera op who will operate a second camera. But hiring local PAs, teleprompter, grip, hair and makeup. But we all know the Bay Area is one of the most expensive places to live in the world so it makes sense that crew and gear rental is going to be high up there.
Also, keep in mind, here in LA, a "stage" can be a modest 2,000 square foot affair or a 40,000 or 100,000 square foot warehouse sized monster so not sure what level you are talking here? Some stages here in LA (Milk Studios) I've used in Hollywood for a fashion thing, very expensive, Ben Kitay and Quixote are pretty damned high. But go over the hill to Burbank and you can find lots of smaller stuff at really cheap rates. Step down to Van Nuys, North Hollywood, Pacoima and you can get even cheaper but generally these are small insert stages for interviews, spokesperson green screen. If you need a real stage with flats, sets, grids, sound stage, those are not as competitive on cost because they are more often booked by Union Hollywood shoots, not small low budget indie things or corporate shoots. I've paid as little as $350.00 per day for a small insert stage in the Valley to shoot a music/dance video to $20k for a 40,000 sq ft stage at Quixote to shoot a Pirates of the Caribbean green screen thing for Disney, and everything in between. There are literally thousands of stages in Southern California.
Also, keep in mind, here in LA, a "stage" can be a modest 2,000 square foot affair or a 40,000 or 100,000 square foot warehouse sized monster so not sure what level you are talking here? Some stages here in LA (Milk Studios) I've used in Hollywood for a fashion thing, very expensive, Ben Kitay and Quixote are pretty damned high. But go over the hill to Burbank and you can find lots of smaller stuff at really cheap rates. Step down to Van Nuys, North Hollywood, Pacoima and you can get even cheaper but generally these are small insert stages for interviews, spokesperson green screen. If you need a real stage with flats, sets, grids, sound stage, those are not as competitive on cost because they are more often booked by Union Hollywood shoots, not small low budget indie things or corporate shoots. I've paid as little as $350.00 per day for a small insert stage in the Valley to shoot a music/dance video to $20k for a 40,000 sq ft stage at Quixote to shoot a Pirates of the Caribbean green screen thing for Disney, and everything in between. There are literally thousands of stages in Southern California.
bill totolo
Veteran
Been shooting some fairly large live events this year, I run camera dept and coordinate with the sat truck team.
It's fairly high stress on the sat/tricaster guys. If anything goes down during the shoot it's considered a "catastrophic failure" as we lose viewership rapidly while they scramble for a solution. Fortunately none of my shoots have experienced a problem but I don't want to take too much credit. There are so many variables, prep is really important. Think location scout, tech scout, lots of conference calls, schematics, gear lists, amendments, cancellations, last minute approvals, flights to nice cities that you only get to see from the seat of your plane, 19 hour days, followed by a potential gig the next day in another city...then again, the adrenalin rush you get from pulling it all off, satisfying the client, vibing with an audience, working with a great crew under harsh conditions and awesome gear...
You can make a living, you can rent your gear for a fair rate, and maybe you can use it as a step on your way up the ladder. You'll get some great footage for your reel, and meet some great, dedicated people.
It's fairly high stress on the sat/tricaster guys. If anything goes down during the shoot it's considered a "catastrophic failure" as we lose viewership rapidly while they scramble for a solution. Fortunately none of my shoots have experienced a problem but I don't want to take too much credit. There are so many variables, prep is really important. Think location scout, tech scout, lots of conference calls, schematics, gear lists, amendments, cancellations, last minute approvals, flights to nice cities that you only get to see from the seat of your plane, 19 hour days, followed by a potential gig the next day in another city...then again, the adrenalin rush you get from pulling it all off, satisfying the client, vibing with an audience, working with a great crew under harsh conditions and awesome gear...
You can make a living, you can rent your gear for a fair rate, and maybe you can use it as a step on your way up the ladder. You'll get some great footage for your reel, and meet some great, dedicated people.
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Run&Gun
Veteran
They're trying to be smart and keep a "united front". If everyone sticks to the rates, then it keeps them where they should be. We've had rates continually chipped away at for years, now. I even see experienced guys doing HD shoots, with real gear, for what SD rates were 15 years ago. Everything is more expensive, now. Houses, cars, insurance... We shouldn't be making less money in our 40's than we were in our 20's.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Had a friend do exactly that(not this particular instance). He told them to fly their guy in, ship his gear, put him in a hotel, get him a rental car and pay his per diem and then see if he's STILL cheaper than hiring someone local.
I don't know if part of it is that the NY/LA types just think we're a bunch of country bumpkins with camcorders that we bought at Best Buy, or what, and that we're tripping over ourselves to "shoot for an LA production". The guys I work with, most all of us have well over 20 years experience, each, with large gear packages.
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puredrifting
Major Contributor
I was just comparing to rates I pay in LA and NYC. The other things is, perhaps this was just an outlier, but in Atlanta we had a wardrobe person, a gaffer and a PA (each was sourced from a different place, not all from the same production company) all try to basically rip us off on rates and putting things on their invoice that we turned down, shipped back, didn't need, want or use. The line producer kept coming to me with the gaffer's invoice and he had lights on there that we simply didn't ask for or use and this added up to over $1,000.00 is additions that were just plain not used. I remarked to the line producer that if these people were in the LA market, trying the same game, they would have just blackballed themselves from getting any more work in general. But apparently in Atlanta, that was deemed acceptable behavior. It left me very gun shy about producing another project in Atlanta again, you have to work with people who are trustworthy. I would have just marked it as an anomoly but the same thing happened with three or four other crew, they were just plain trying to rip us off. Amazing, we were all shaking our heads.
My thoughts, going back to the original OP - is to not focus on "certain areas" at all. That is until you find the "right people" - meaning the right type of clients that you like and enjoy working with and then solely focus on helping them succeed. If they like & value your work - then most likely it will be they who push you in the direction you need to go...
In other words - instead of "build it and they will come"... a bit more of find out what they exactly want built and then build exactly that. In my experience, this also helps from always chasing the latest gear. :smile:
alaskacameradude
Veteran
^^ I've wondered this before myself. It costs what it costs. I'm really pretty unconcerned
with what it costs in LA or NY. I still remember an incident from working on 'The Amazing Race'
a couple years ago. The big million dollar finish was up here in Alaska. The producers came in
a week early and I was doing location scouting with them. We went to one of the local helicopter
companies. The producers made friends and shmoozed with the pilots and owners all week, even
hired them to fly to a couple remote locations to scout. Then at the end of the week they asked
for a quote. They wanted to use a couple remote locations and would need to fly in crew and gear,
fly in contestants....bring everyone back out, all that sort of thing. The producers got the quote and said
'Geez, that's way more than we would pay in LA. I thought we were tight now. I thought you were going to hook us up!'
The owner replied
'I AM hooking you up. That's a 25% discount from my normal rate!!'
His helicopter time is sold out months or even years in advance in the summer with all the tourists
taking helicopter tours. Different markets....different prices. You just never know why.
Sometimes smaller markets are MORE expensive for video crew, because there is less competition,
so they can charge more, or sometimes it's that there is less work so they need to make more
on each job. I've found that rates are really all over the place when I travel for shoots.
You just really never know.
Yeah the right clients make all the difference
Run&Gun
Veteran
Now I do not condone that type of behavior or attitude, at all. THAT is the type of s--- that ends up screwing us all, eventually, not to mention just plain 'not cool'. Like the guys that used to bill $35-$45 PER TAPE in the BetaSP days. I had no idea that they were trying to do something like that "across the board" down there. I go to Atlanta several times a year, but I'm not dealing with other crews on the same level you were. It's usually just me and and one of my audio guys or maybe us and one other person from down there. But I have seen one of my friends down there try to "up-sale" on a few shoots very aggressively before. My philosophy is to treat everyone fairly and honestly. It's one thing if the client asks for certain things or if you think the shoot needs something extra and you run it by them and they approve it. I used to carry a 5D in my camera support bag, 'just in case' the producer wanted a second angle, but I didn't bill anything for it unless they wanted it and we actually used it.
It is sad how people will try to take advantage. Certainly not limited to our field. From car salesmen, to plumbers, to mechanics and on and on... When people see a chance to make more money they often take it.
I wasn't aware of the situation in Atlanta. It's great to have a board like this with input from so many helpful people. Thanks guys
I wasn't aware of the situation in Atlanta. It's great to have a board like this with input from so many helpful people. Thanks guys
Thanks again, puredrifting. That info helps put things in perspective. I've been looking at various places online to see what is offered.
I would not be able to do a full sound stage but am looking at building a box in a box (ie metal building that has another structure built inside). Less than 5,000 sq ft for the whole thing, which would include other rooms too and van parking/load area.
JPNola
Veteran
I wouldn't invest in a studio space of any size or type unless I had at least had some experience working for a studio / operating a studio. I'd want to first have some sort of idea of the pitfalls, traps, do's and don'ts. I'd want to know what mistakes others made who tried it and failed. I don't think it is as simple as build it and they will come. I'd want to carefully and thoroughly study the demand vs availability. Either there needs to be demand greater than the available space or you're going to have to hope to "steal" bookings from existing studio spaces by offering a more attractive service for a price that is still competitive. I'd want to at least have some sort of relationship with the folks who use studio space or, if not an existing relationship, know who they are in order to target their business. It isn't something I would go into lightly.
Good advice. Going blindly into debt in the hope that business would come would not be wise.
Since losing nearly everything due to a crooked ex business partner, not having a building has been frustrating. I have to figure out how to work around not having a space to record in and meet clients. So the last several years that has meant going to them.
In my case, a studio would be used for my business, my ministries and a living quarters. I want to sell my house since all I do is work. I’m getting old fast. I love helping businesses succeed and helping individuals with their problems. I’ve put tremendous effort into trying to build something to do it all better, but never getting there yet.
A studio would be my final location until I die or can no longer work.
So I don’t de-rail the thread I started
into a studio discussion I’m looking at how to broaden my services. In the past when asked to switch live events, my answer was no, we can’t do that. When clients want to record or meet at my studio I can’t do that either(now), which looks bad to them. My ministry work (all free) is limited in what I can do without a building too.
Learning about all this stuff can be difficult and making mistakes costly. Much of the gear and software I've had to teach myself. Competitors won’t let you come look at their operation, of course. I’ve discovered through the years that many of the people I know that do video production really are not very good. So often that means learning online from kind people who know. And I look for diagrams, layouts, bts and various info too.
Convincing new clients you are the one to help them accomplish what they need is key. One challenge is that if a client likes you but you can’t do something, they won’t wait until you can. They usually want it yesterday so they will find it somewhere else. You want to be capable so as not to miss out on work because you are not equipped for the demand.
Building in relation to demand is important. Don’t build too much hoping they will come and go bankrupt. Build what is needed by the ones you want to work with. Not necessarily an easy formula and timing is important.
Since losing nearly everything due to a crooked ex business partner, not having a building has been frustrating. I have to figure out how to work around not having a space to record in and meet clients. So the last several years that has meant going to them.
In my case, a studio would be used for my business, my ministries and a living quarters. I want to sell my house since all I do is work. I’m getting old fast. I love helping businesses succeed and helping individuals with their problems. I’ve put tremendous effort into trying to build something to do it all better, but never getting there yet.
A studio would be my final location until I die or can no longer work.
So I don’t de-rail the thread I started
into a studio discussion I’m looking at how to broaden my services. In the past when asked to switch live events, my answer was no, we can’t do that. When clients want to record or meet at my studio I can’t do that either(now), which looks bad to them. My ministry work (all free) is limited in what I can do without a building too.Learning about all this stuff can be difficult and making mistakes costly. Much of the gear and software I've had to teach myself. Competitors won’t let you come look at their operation, of course. I’ve discovered through the years that many of the people I know that do video production really are not very good. So often that means learning online from kind people who know. And I look for diagrams, layouts, bts and various info too.
Convincing new clients you are the one to help them accomplish what they need is key. One challenge is that if a client likes you but you can’t do something, they won’t wait until you can. They usually want it yesterday so they will find it somewhere else. You want to be capable so as not to miss out on work because you are not equipped for the demand.
Building in relation to demand is important. Don’t build too much hoping they will come and go bankrupt. Build what is needed by the ones you want to work with. Not necessarily an easy formula and timing is important.