Filming Minors and legal issues

O

offbeatbryce

Well-known member
Hello,

I work for a non profit organization that has asked me to film kids in a shopping mall during Christmas because they are doing a documentary film on a guy being santa clause who happens to have special needs.

The organization is trying to bring awareness to special needs and disabilities. The organization is telling me I don't need permission to film kids and that I won't need permission to film at a mall as that is a public place. I have researched this myself and from what I found a shopping mall is actually a private owned building (in my state at least here is the USA)

I also have my own film business and don't want to be asked leave the mall or worse thrown out of the mall. I don't want my name being reported as a potential creep or stalker and in today's climate Adults filming kids without consent could be looked as potentially perverted etc. The organization has told me that if there were legal problems they would deal with it but I don't think the organization knows exactly what they are getting into.

The head of the organization claims if you can be filmed on security cameras, drive thru etc there is no problem with me bringing a camera in a mall to film kids. I'm also told that since there is no money being made off the video and it's going on YouTube that it's fair game.

Am I right to be concerned here? The video would have the kids image, likeness voice etc

A photographer in my state of Vermont was recently arrested from a shopping center for photographing adults and kids and after his refusal to leave he was arrested and also sued by several staff members of the shopping mall etc. This is why I'm very concerned and the head of the non profit organization is telling me that if I work for her I have to stay there even if asked to leave.

Any advice would be appreciated before I agree to move forward with this project.

To be clear I'm not doing this for my business but for the non profit organization that is paying me as I work for them making videos. My business is my own thing for other videos but not this project in the mall.
 
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The local mall here throws you out as fast as they see you if you don't have permission to shoot there! Often a simple call to their PR office was all that's needed, depending on the type of shooting, a doc like this would probably get a green light.

As far as the people, I'd make sure to get release forms signed by the parents. Without the form, I'd leave those people in the unused clips bin. You could maybe blur background people out, but anyone with the main subject would need a release. I'd bring an assistant that day to wrangle the releases and free you to do your thing.

And I'd probably hire a lawyer to make sure I was using the correct style of release.

And there is no stay if asked to leave, sooner or later you will leave, and very likely in handcuffs. It is NOT public property! Also your equipment could be held in evidence until a trial is over, all depends who wants to push and how hard they want to push. No matter what, staying when told to leave could cost you a lot of time and money in legal expenses, better have that lawyer's phone number memorized.
 
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Greg_E said:
The local mall here throws you out as fast as they see you if you don't have permission to shoot there! Often a simple call to their PR office was all that's needed, depending on the type of shooting, a doc like this would probably get a green light.

As far as the people, I'd make sure to get release forms signed by the parents. Without the form, I'd leave those people in the unused clips bin. You could maybe blur background people out, but anyone with the main subject would need a release. I'd bring an assistant that day to wrangle the releases and free you to do your thing.

And I'd probably hire a lawyer to make sure I was using the correct style of release.
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All things I mentioned to the head of the non profit organization and I was told "We don't have time to deal with that"
 
Then you don't have time to deal with the repercussions. I'd probably walk away unless you want to do all the legwork.
 
I get a funny feeling that they may want police and news attention, that they want to cause trouble to try and make some sort of point. Not a situation for me, but in the end it is your life and your gear.

Also remind them that it is 3-4 months before the event time, if they can't coordinate things, then what do they want???
 
offbeatbryce said:
All things I mentioned to the head of the non profit organization and I was told "We don't have time to deal with that"
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This is the same response you're going to get when you ask where the check is after you finish the vid... Sounds like a nightmare client waiting to happen. Bummer as it sounds like it's for a good cause, but I would run away from this one.
 
Most (and probably all) malls explicitly prohibit any photography, videotaping, or recording without written permission.

You may be able to get permission without too much hassle, though I think you may also have to provide proof of liabilty insurance for at least $1 million (that has been my experience in the two malls I've filmed at) and maybe more (friends experiences at different private malls). And then there's all the releases (the cheezy "post a sign" thing doesn't cover minors, I think...I could be wrong, though).

And as others say, if you don't have permission, you will mostly likely be kicked out, possibly arrested, beat up by righteously pissed parents, etc.

Even if you stay under their radar and just grab some shots with a smartphone, after the video comes out, the mall could chase down the nonprofit and/or you, and...

"The organization has told me that if there were legal problems they would deal with it..."
You mean they'd bail you out of jail and pay all your legal, L&D, and medical bills? And get your criminal record expunged?

Google around for some info, maybe see if you can talk to the nonprofit's lawyer.

Maybe write a letter briefly spelling out your concerns, link to a general article about filmming in malls, link to a news story about the photog who got arrested, and say you're willing to contact the mall to get permission but that you're just not comfortable filming without explicit permission, releases, etc. Keep it open, but put it in writing.

Then be willing to say sorry, no.

Good luck and let us know what happens!
 
The head of that organization is an idiot that has no clue what they're talking about and you can tell them I said so. If you listen to this boob, you'll be lucky if being tossed out on your ass is the only thing that happens.
 
"We don't have time to deal with that" Wow, how big a signal do you need to run away from this as fast as you can? That lack of competency tells you all you need about how they will deal with you and the project. I couldn't get away from that fast enough. Run Forrest, run!
 
I show posts like this to newbies considering getting into this business and then I tell them to get a degree and a real career. While I love our business, from a business standpoint, video production sucks. You have lots of potential legal pitfalls and gotchas coming at you all of the time and you are not even well compensated in most cases. It's not even that your potential client is stupid, it's that we all get hammered with crap like this all of the time, clients are always trying to weasel out of doing the right thing because it costs them time, money and effort. Tell them to take a hike.
 
offbeatbryce said:
All things I mentioned to the head of the non profit organization and I was told "We don't have time to deal with that"
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Get out.

Shooting in a mall may or may not get you thrown out. That's not a big thing (unless they later say you accepted the job and now have the obligation of delivering, which would be an extremely dick move but who knows).

Uploading a video in which non-consenting minors appear, without blurring their faces, can get you into much more serious legal trouble. It will likely just end up in the video being taken down, but it can escalate to a lot more than that. And seriously, what kind of cliend asks you to do something like this without thinking about the legal aspects at all.
 
This is one of the reasons why this business is getting so bad. It's so full of people, now, that have no idea about things like this and just think they can do whatever they want. Like a lot of people on here, I have a background in news so I have a good idea about what can and can't be done, when and for what use. But so many now just think it's all free game. Maybe it's because of YouTube, Instagram and FaceBook, because people post stuff from everywhere all the time and they just assume it's the same when in comes to commercial(non-news/non-editorial) use. One of my clients is the production arm of a major league sport sanctioning body and even when we shoot with "their people"(away from the venues), everyone appearing on-camera(at least in a speaking capacity or prominently featured, not just off ) signs a release. CYA.
 
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Let's make it simple: you cannot shoot in a mall without permission from the mall. Period.

If the organization refuses to get permission, then you're done, right there and then.

If there's a big paycheck on this gig, then you will have to assume all the legal duties for getting permission, getting releases, etc. If you don't want to do that, then walk.

If the organization insists that you're being difficult, tell them to go there themselves and shoot it on their cell phones. Because that's about the only way anything gets shot. The mall will absolutely, unquestionably throw you out the minute you produce anything that looks like a real video camera.

Furthermore, filming people's kids without their parents permission is a lawsuit waiting to happen. DON'T DO THAT. Get a signed release form from the parent of every kid who appears in it.

If you want to avoid most of this hassle, move to a public place. Screw the mall, go to a public park, and get permission from the city/county/state who manages the park. You'll be on much safer ground at that point.
 
Thanks for all the replies everyone. I have emailed the owners of the mall and explained what the project will be. Hopefully I get an email back explaining what needs to be done to film there if they will let me.
 
Dude, you don't listen to sound advice above.
You have TWO problems at hand: 1.) filming at a mall (to which the mall might give you permission) and 2.) filming minors (to which the parents might give you permission but you gotta ask them FIRST and sign appropriate release).
 
Chances are good that he can get someone to wrangle the release forms, a big sign in the area that says something to the idea of: "if you do not wish your child to be recorded, please mention so before entering this area". Might help and might make it easier to get the forms signed. That sign wouldn't cover you in court, so you still need the release forms signed buy legal guardians. The only people that would have a right to be mad, would be the people interacting before the camera was set up, anyone after the camera is up and rolling have lost one leg to stand on. But that doesn't cover you, releases are still needed!

I'd get the mall to sign a release as well, and I'd have a copy in my pocket for anyone that wanted to challenge your permission to shoot.

I've never been kicked out of our malls, but I've hovered around waiting for permission to come back through the newsroom, and I've set up on private/public property that overlooks the malls as well. One of them has a gas station right at the entrance, and a long feud with the mall for trying to take their property at less than market value, it was easy to get permission to park in their lot and set up any kind of live shot we needed!

But before all that, I probably would have found a polite way to turn this project away.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
Dude, you don't listen to sound advice above.
You have TWO problems at hand: 1.) filming at a mall (to which the mall might give you permission) and 2.) filming minors (to which the parents might give you permission but you gotta ask them FIRST and sign appropriate release).
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.... and three, it sounds like a client that doesn't care; just get it done by any means possible. If they don't care about important matters such as these, they probably don't care about you either. Who knows what other issues lay ahead with them. Walk away from this one. Really, don't do it.


offbeatbryce said:
All things I mentioned to the head of the non profit organization and I was told "We don't have time to deal with that"
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I read that to also mean they don't have time for fire codes, electrical safety, tripping hazards, child safety, liability, paying their vendors, parents lawsuits, mall lawsuits..... Run away.
 
Why does it seem like so many "non-profits" behave like this? I believe that they(some) think that because they are a "non-profit" organization and (supposedly) helping others that normal rules and laws don't apply to them. And they want everything for free. "Why won't you do this for free?! We're helping the kids!" But their executives usually have ridiculous salaries...
 
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