filming miniatures with DVX
- Thread starter Sabacoza
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Scottdvx100
Veteran
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
Keep the camera low. (i.e. if this were a real location you'd probably be shooting it from eye height. Try setting the camera close to the scale eye height) If you look down on it then it will look like a miniature. Looking up provides a larger sense of scale.
Shoot locked off or with minimal camera movement. If you do a large move then it will appear out of scale (i.e. like a helicopter flying too fast) and will look like a model.
Shoot outdoors if you can so it's naturally lit and has a natural sky. (Assuming it's supposed to represent the outdoors. If not light close to what a real set would be lit)
Stop you lens down. If the miniature is small you may have to get very close. Even with the 1/3 inch video you may have shallow depth of field. This will look unrealistic since a full size version would be totally in focus. Get enough light and change the iris until you have enough depth of field for front and back of model to be in focus.
Consider lowering the contrast in post a bit if the minature represents something in the distance. There's usually atmospheric haze which causes buildings and mountains in the distance to be a bit grayed out.
If you have any action taking place (fire, water, falling items, etc) then you'll want to shoot at high speed (60i for 24fps sequence) so the scale of motion appears correct. How much depends on scale of your model and the specific action. Search for slow motion approaches.
If it can be combined with live action (people or real location) then it will help. examples: Model of building with a hole where a door will be lined up to a real door with a person. You can do this all with compositing in post but if you can get real interaction it's easier and will likely look better.
Watch the details. Finger prints or gap between the model and the ground will give away the scale. Fine details will help sell it as being large.
Compare it to the surrounding footage to make sure it matches look and lighting.
Keep the camera low. (i.e. if this were a real location you'd probably be shooting it from eye height. Try setting the camera close to the scale eye height) If you look down on it then it will look like a miniature. Looking up provides a larger sense of scale.
Shoot locked off or with minimal camera movement. If you do a large move then it will appear out of scale (i.e. like a helicopter flying too fast) and will look like a model.
Shoot outdoors if you can so it's naturally lit and has a natural sky. (Assuming it's supposed to represent the outdoors. If not light close to what a real set would be lit)
Stop you lens down. If the miniature is small you may have to get very close. Even with the 1/3 inch video you may have shallow depth of field. This will look unrealistic since a full size version would be totally in focus. Get enough light and change the iris until you have enough depth of field for front and back of model to be in focus.
Consider lowering the contrast in post a bit if the minature represents something in the distance. There's usually atmospheric haze which causes buildings and mountains in the distance to be a bit grayed out.
If you have any action taking place (fire, water, falling items, etc) then you'll want to shoot at high speed (60i for 24fps sequence) so the scale of motion appears correct. How much depends on scale of your model and the specific action. Search for slow motion approaches.
If it can be combined with live action (people or real location) then it will help. examples: Model of building with a hole where a door will be lined up to a real door with a person. You can do this all with compositing in post but if you can get real interaction it's easier and will likely look better.
Watch the details. Finger prints or gap between the model and the ground will give away the scale. Fine details will help sell it as being large.
Compare it to the surrounding footage to make sure it matches look and lighting.
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
I intend to make a sci-fi film in which pretty much all the scenery will be miniatures with live action since I'm horrible at 3D. Anyway, if a scene calls for a pan I would do this very slowly and is there any specific way to make an overhead shot look more like full scale. live action of a character will be in the shot. I guess I would need to add very fine detail to the miniature as you've stated. Thanks for the info so far.
I intend to make a sci-fi film in which pretty much all the scenery will be miniatures with live action since I'm horrible at 3D. Anyway, if a scene calls for a pan I would do this very slowly and is there any specific way to make an overhead shot look more like full scale. live action of a character will be in the shot. I guess I would need to add very fine detail to the miniature as you've stated. Thanks for the info so far.
Phil
Veteran
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
If you watch the behind the scenes on "bigatures" from the LOTR's DVD extended set, they also recommended building the set as large as you can, that way each object can have more detail.
Also, I would definitely watch movement, ANY movement...i think it's the one thing than can ruin a set quickly.
If you get a chance, post a pic of your set when you're done. Good luck.
If you watch the behind the scenes on "bigatures" from the LOTR's DVD extended set, they also recommended building the set as large as you can, that way each object can have more detail.
Also, I would definitely watch movement, ANY movement...i think it's the one thing than can ruin a set quickly.
If you get a chance, post a pic of your set when you're done. Good luck.
Scottdvx100
Veteran
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
If you're panning or tilting try to mount the camera close to the nodal point. Setup so you see minimal perspective change by slidding camera forward or backward relative to the center of your tripod. This way the perspective and the pan won't look like a big boom swing.
If you're panning or tilting try to mount the camera close to the nodal point. Setup so you see minimal perspective change by slidding camera forward or backward relative to the center of your tripod. This way the perspective and the pan won't look like a big boom swing.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
This is a formula ILM used to use in the day. I have no idea how ( or if ) it can apply to the DVX or the NLE you are using but perhaps one of our more techincal type folks can figure it out? (cough cough BARRY GREEN cough cough)
The formula for determining the proper camera speed when photographing a miniature. (By the way, the little V with a top tail is that little math division symbol
)
__
24 X V D/d = f
D = Dimensions in feet of real object
d = Dimensions in feet of the miniature photographed
f = Frame per second (camera frame rate)
If you were to photograph a spaceship that is supposed to be 20 feet long (D = 20) using a model 2 feet in length (d = 2), here is the proper frame rate would be calculated:
_____
24 x V 20/2 = f
___
24 x V 10 = f
24 x 3.16 = f
76 = f
In theory, the proper frame rate for a tenth-size miniature is 76 frames per second, a little more than three times normal speed. This would make a one-second event slow down to 3.16 seconds.
This is a formula ILM used to use in the day. I have no idea how ( or if ) it can apply to the DVX or the NLE you are using but perhaps one of our more techincal type folks can figure it out? (cough cough BARRY GREEN cough cough)
The formula for determining the proper camera speed when photographing a miniature. (By the way, the little V with a top tail is that little math division symbol
)__
24 X V D/d = f
D = Dimensions in feet of real object
d = Dimensions in feet of the miniature photographed
f = Frame per second (camera frame rate)
If you were to photograph a spaceship that is supposed to be 20 feet long (D = 20) using a model 2 feet in length (d = 2), here is the proper frame rate would be calculated:
_____
24 x V 20/2 = f
___
24 x V 10 = f
24 x 3.16 = f
76 = f
In theory, the proper frame rate for a tenth-size miniature is 76 frames per second, a little more than three times normal speed. This would make a one-second event slow down to 3.16 seconds.
HansK
Veteran
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1092601882;start=0#6 date=08/15/04 at 23:28:56]T(By the way, the little V with a top tail is that little math division symbol[/quote]
I think your V bar means square root and not division. Yes?
Btw - Cool formula. Thanks for the info.
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1092601882;start=0#6 date=08/15/04 at 23:28:56]T(By the way, the little V with a top tail is that little math division symbol[/quote]
I think your V bar means square root and not division. Yes?
Btw - Cool formula. Thanks for the info.
Scottdvx100
Veteran
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
That's a standard effects formula (even before ILM) but it's only necessary if you have some action in the scene (i.e. fire, falling objects, etc). In most cases if this is required a film test is done which may or may not match the formula. Many minatures are shot motion control (frame by frame very slowly) to allow finer, smoother camera motion and too allow stopping down for depth of field. High speed photography and small f-stop requires a lot of light.
That's a standard effects formula (even before ILM) but it's only necessary if you have some action in the scene (i.e. fire, falling objects, etc). In most cases if this is required a film test is done which may or may not match the formula. Many minatures are shot motion control (frame by frame very slowly) to allow finer, smoother camera motion and too allow stopping down for depth of field. High speed photography and small f-stop requires a lot of light.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
Yeah, that's a real simple formula: 24 x the square root of the ratio of full-size to model size = fps.
Unfortunately it's not directly applicable to the DVX because you can't overcrank (except if you shoot 60i and slow down to 24P).
Also, with miniatures, try to avoid water -- water's always a dead giveaway that something's a miniature because water itself doesn't miniaturize, it always moves and splashes at full size... realistic miniatures in water are usually huge, to compensate.
Yeah, that's a real simple formula: 24 x the square root of the ratio of full-size to model size = fps.
Unfortunately it's not directly applicable to the DVX because you can't overcrank (except if you shoot 60i and slow down to 24P).
Also, with miniatures, try to avoid water -- water's always a dead giveaway that something's a miniature because water itself doesn't miniaturize, it always moves and splashes at full size... realistic miniatures in water are usually huge, to compensate.
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
i FIGURED THAT THE dvx WOULD NOT APPLY
i FIGURED THAT THE dvx WOULD NOT APPLY
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
so this is the secret formula they used to shoot the oompa loompa's in that willy wonka movie.
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1092601882;start=0#6 date=08/15/04 at 23:28:56]This is a formula ILM used to use in the day. I have no idea how ( or if ) it can apply to the DVX or the NLE you are using but perhaps one of our more techincal type folks can figure it out? (cough cough BARRY GREEN cough cough)
The formula for determining the proper camera speed when photographing a miniature. (By the way, the little V with a top tail is that little math division symbol)
__
24 X V D/d = f
D = Dimensions in feet of real object
d = Dimensions in feet of the miniature photographed
f = Frame per second (camera frame rate)
If you were to photograph a spaceship that is supposed to be 20 feet long (D = 20) using a model 2 feet in length (d = 2), here is the proper frame rate would be calculated:
_____
24 x V 20/2 = f
___
24 x V 10 = f
24 x 3.16 = f
76 = f
In theory, the proper frame rate for a tenth-size miniature is 76 frames per second, a little more than three times normal speed. This would make a one-second event slow down to 3.16 seconds.
[/quote]
so this is the secret formula they used to shoot the oompa loompa's in that willy wonka movie.
[quote author=John Hudson link=board=news;num=1092601882;start=0#6 date=08/15/04 at 23:28:56]This is a formula ILM used to use in the day. I have no idea how ( or if ) it can apply to the DVX or the NLE you are using but perhaps one of our more techincal type folks can figure it out? (cough cough BARRY GREEN cough cough)
The formula for determining the proper camera speed when photographing a miniature. (By the way, the little V with a top tail is that little math division symbol
)__
24 X V D/d = f
D = Dimensions in feet of real object
d = Dimensions in feet of the miniature photographed
f = Frame per second (camera frame rate)
If you were to photograph a spaceship that is supposed to be 20 feet long (D = 20) using a model 2 feet in length (d = 2), here is the proper frame rate would be calculated:
_____
24 x V 20/2 = f
___
24 x V 10 = f
24 x 3.16 = f
76 = f
In theory, the proper frame rate for a tenth-size miniature is 76 frames per second, a little more than three times normal speed. This would make a one-second event slow down to 3.16 seconds.
[/quote]
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
[quote author=Sabacoza link=board=news;num=1092601882;start=0#11 date=08/16/04 at 13:47:14]Yes, it's a cool formula unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough in math to understand it. :-[/quote]
It's really simple: in order to shoot a miniature realistically, you want to shoot at a high frame rate to simulate slow motion. That helps give the illusion of "weight" to the miniature.
The faster the frame rate you shoot at, the slower the slow motion when it's played back.
If you have a miniature that is 1/25 scale, say, a 2' long model of a 50' long boat, the formula says to:
1) Divide the real object's size by the smaller object's size. In this case you'd get 25 (50 / 2 = 25).
2) Take the square root of that result. In this case, 5. The square root of 25 is 5.
3) Multiply that by 24. In this case, you'd get 120. So, to make the miniature look realistic, you'd want to shoot at 120 frames per second.
Unfortunately, that's not possible with the DVX. We can only shoot at a maximum rate of 60 fields per second.
Fortunately for us, the formula can be simplified somewhat.
With the DVX, we really only have one option, which is 60 fields per second (in NTSC), which gives us a maximum slowdown rate of 2.5. If you shoot at 60 fields per second and then play that back at the rate of one field = one frame, it'll take 2.5 times as long to play back. That means our slowdown rate is 2.5 times. So if the size of the miniature in the formula were adjusted so that the result of step 2 is 2.5, it'll work.
And since 2.5, being the constant in our equation, is the square root of 6 (roughly), then we arrive at what we must do: miniatures have to be 1/6 the size of the real thing, in order for the slowdown to appear "natural".
[quote author=Sabacoza link=board=news;num=1092601882;start=0#11 date=08/16/04 at 13:47:14]Yes, it's a cool formula unfortunately I'm not knowledgeable enough in math to understand it. :-[/quote]
It's really simple: in order to shoot a miniature realistically, you want to shoot at a high frame rate to simulate slow motion. That helps give the illusion of "weight" to the miniature.
The faster the frame rate you shoot at, the slower the slow motion when it's played back.
If you have a miniature that is 1/25 scale, say, a 2' long model of a 50' long boat, the formula says to:
1) Divide the real object's size by the smaller object's size. In this case you'd get 25 (50 / 2 = 25).
2) Take the square root of that result. In this case, 5. The square root of 25 is 5.
3) Multiply that by 24. In this case, you'd get 120. So, to make the miniature look realistic, you'd want to shoot at 120 frames per second.
Unfortunately, that's not possible with the DVX. We can only shoot at a maximum rate of 60 fields per second.
Fortunately for us, the formula can be simplified somewhat.
With the DVX, we really only have one option, which is 60 fields per second (in NTSC), which gives us a maximum slowdown rate of 2.5. If you shoot at 60 fields per second and then play that back at the rate of one field = one frame, it'll take 2.5 times as long to play back. That means our slowdown rate is 2.5 times. So if the size of the miniature in the formula were adjusted so that the result of step 2 is 2.5, it'll work.
And since 2.5, being the constant in our equation, is the square root of 6 (roughly), then we arrive at what we must do: miniatures have to be 1/6 the size of the real thing, in order for the slowdown to appear "natural".
J.R. Hudson
Spirit Animal
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
I knew BARRY had skills.
Here I am thinking its some division thingy
I knew BARRY had skills.
Here I am thinking its some division thingy
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
Thanks Barry, That helps to simplify it a bit.
Ok, let me see if I can do this. Lets say I have a miniature set that's 3' and the real life thing would be 70' I would take 70 divide that by 3 and get 23 roughly. The square route of 23 is 5. So I take 24 and multiply that by 5 = 120. Am I close or way off?
Thanks Barry, That helps to simplify it a bit.
Ok, let me see if I can do this. Lets say I have a miniature set that's 3' and the real life thing would be 70' I would take 70 divide that by 3 and get 23 roughly. The square route of 23 is 5. So I take 24 and multiply that by 5 = 120. Am I close or way off?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
Sounds good to me. But keep in mind that you can't actually shoot at 120fps, so you'll have to move the camera twice as slowly and even then you may not get a convincing feel of gravity and weight.
You'd have to make the set 12' in order to be able to pull this off effectively with the DVX.
Sounds good to me. But keep in mind that you can't actually shoot at 120fps, so you'll have to move the camera twice as slowly and even then you may not get a convincing feel of gravity and weight.
You'd have to make the set 12' in order to be able to pull this off effectively with the DVX.
DVX100Shooter
Veteran
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
what about shooting something like a matchbox car or maybe a model car or something and have them look normal size is that possible? Or is that too small to even try to do that with?
what about shooting something like a matchbox car or maybe a model car or something and have them look normal size is that possible? Or is that too small to even try to do that with?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: filming miniatures with DVX
Depends on how long it's on the screen and how fast it's moving. There were some tutorials on the web where someone was showing special effects techniques, and he blew up a van and had it come flying at the camera, and I think he used a miniature van. It looked basically okay, because the car was so quick and on the screen so little, but if you're actually giving a miniature that small some significant screen time I think you'll find it very challenging to make it look believable.
Depends on how long it's on the screen and how fast it's moving. There were some tutorials on the web where someone was showing special effects techniques, and he blew up a van and had it come flying at the camera, and I think he used a miniature van. It looked basically okay, because the car was so quick and on the screen so little, but if you're actually giving a miniature that small some significant screen time I think you'll find it very challenging to make it look believable.