Filming at a bar. Do you have to clear all liquor bottles?
- Thread starter Angelshare1
- Start date
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
"Trademark" is the word.
That´s why those companies putting labels on their products. To be recognized.
So let those labels do their job gracefully.
Having a bar with reversed bottles is bad set design, because it is totally unrealistic.
What if you got a McDonalds Logo in the background and you blur it by shooting wide open?
Can they sue you, because they invested quite some money in that big neon M and you ruin their investment?
What if a company sues you for relabeling their bottle?
Isn't that a risk to? You crippled their design.
This BS is so on my nerves - if they don´t want their precious logos or trademarks be seen,
they should stop putting them everywhere, so us filmmakers can display the world as it is
without that Damocles sword of loosing our home and first born son swinging over our heads.
Jeeez, I start sounding like George Carlin.
Frank
That´s why those companies putting labels on their products. To be recognized.
So let those labels do their job gracefully.
Having a bar with reversed bottles is bad set design, because it is totally unrealistic.
What if you got a McDonalds Logo in the background and you blur it by shooting wide open?
Can they sue you, because they invested quite some money in that big neon M and you ruin their investment?
What if a company sues you for relabeling their bottle?
Isn't that a risk to? You crippled their design.
This BS is so on my nerves - if they don´t want their precious logos or trademarks be seen,
they should stop putting them everywhere, so us filmmakers can display the world as it is
without that Damocles sword of loosing our home and first born son swinging over our heads.
Jeeez, I start sounding like George Carlin.
Frank
In the US 'trademarks' are a form of 'copyright' which are in turn an outgrowth of 'patent' law. But yes, the distinction is there.
Considering the proportion of back-bars that are mirrored, turning the bottles around may not even gain you all that much, save mirror-imaging the graphics that you are trying to conceal...
In all truth and not intending to upset or offend anyone...
...before expending time and worry on trademarked properties etc one should really make a realistic assessment of the likelihood that your work will ever play at the level where it's an issue. The odds are very good indeed that if you are an independent film maker producing shorts, it will never, never, never be an issue. These trademark etc owners have to be aware of the work to begin with, and decide that inclusion of their material in it actually affects them in any way worth litigating over.
And should your short gain national prominence via air- or in-theater time...you can negotiate with the trademark-holder then. And unless your use is derogatory they will probably accommodate you.
More than a moment's thought on the matter is probably a waste for most people here, like worrying that SAG or the IA will come after your small project to try and organize you, or something. The overwhelming odds are that you are not even anywhere near being on their radar. Take advantage of the fact and save yourself the worry, which is probably better-applied to more pressing aspects of your shoot.
Considering the proportion of back-bars that are mirrored, turning the bottles around may not even gain you all that much, save mirror-imaging the graphics that you are trying to conceal...
In all truth and not intending to upset or offend anyone...
...before expending time and worry on trademarked properties etc one should really make a realistic assessment of the likelihood that your work will ever play at the level where it's an issue. The odds are very good indeed that if you are an independent film maker producing shorts, it will never, never, never be an issue. These trademark etc owners have to be aware of the work to begin with, and decide that inclusion of their material in it actually affects them in any way worth litigating over.
And should your short gain national prominence via air- or in-theater time...you can negotiate with the trademark-holder then. And unless your use is derogatory they will probably accommodate you.
More than a moment's thought on the matter is probably a waste for most people here, like worrying that SAG or the IA will come after your small project to try and organize you, or something. The overwhelming odds are that you are not even anywhere near being on their radar. Take advantage of the fact and save yourself the worry, which is probably better-applied to more pressing aspects of your shoot.
Mike Harvey
Veteran
I've had to put black gaff tape over Dell and Samsung logos before because they weren't paying us any money, so the news director didn't want to give them free advertising.
I wouldn't get too shook over it. Spin the bottles partially around so they are facing each other and not reflected well in a bar mirror and don't make anything too painfully obvious and get on with it. Or just drink a lot of booze, fill the empty bottles with water and apple juice and take the labels off and use those
.
MattinSTL
Sound Modulator
True dat.
J Davis' comment about common sense? Also, True dat.
There's a line that should be pretty obvious if crossed... which was my earlier point... if you don't make a company's specific product look bad maliciously, then you probably don't have anything to worry about... and even if you did... and you're reading this thread... then you more then likely you still don't.
Even Super-Size Me was so effective at bashing McDonald's that they no longer use the term "super-size"... now it's "value-size"... so why didn't he get sued? (Did he? Not that I can see.) Because the whole thing was presented as a neutral doc and frankly... I'm sure McD wanted that story to get small as soon as possible.
J Davis
Veteran
You should be. For the dutch angle.
Just kidding
That's an earthquake - that's what the film was about! And the damage to our environment
Jordan Scott Price
Veteran
The use of Rotel Diced Tomatoes over hand-grown diced tomatoes in Rachel Ray's 5-minute New Year's Dinners would imply that the Rotel Diced Tomatoes are a pivotal ingredient in the end result we are all waiting for.
The downing of many a shot of Jack at a bar that leads to a severely drunk man killing someone in a car accident on the way home would imply that it is the many shots of Jack that caused the incident.
A can of Rotel in the background while Rachel Ray is cooking, however, I'd think would make no more a statement than "this is a kitchen," especially if she doesn't even use diced tomatoes in her dish for that episode.
A bottle of Jack on the wall of a bar says no more than "this is a bar."
It is only when a product is used in a malicious manner, to quote previous posters, that a harmless, neutral setpiece becomes an active, pivotal prop for the end result.
A prime example of this is in the great movie Goodfellas, that I'm sure everyone has seen and will now remember what little boo-boo was made in that film:
The American Airlines ticket had to be black-barred because it was bought, in the film, to traffic drugs. American refused to allow their airline to look like a loose-screening service that permitted the trafficking of drugs.
Just my 2c.
The downing of many a shot of Jack at a bar that leads to a severely drunk man killing someone in a car accident on the way home would imply that it is the many shots of Jack that caused the incident.
A can of Rotel in the background while Rachel Ray is cooking, however, I'd think would make no more a statement than "this is a kitchen," especially if she doesn't even use diced tomatoes in her dish for that episode.
A bottle of Jack on the wall of a bar says no more than "this is a bar."
It is only when a product is used in a malicious manner, to quote previous posters, that a harmless, neutral setpiece becomes an active, pivotal prop for the end result.
A prime example of this is in the great movie Goodfellas, that I'm sure everyone has seen and will now remember what little boo-boo was made in that film:
The American Airlines ticket had to be black-barred because it was bought, in the film, to traffic drugs. American refused to allow their airline to look like a loose-screening service that permitted the trafficking of drugs.
Just my 2c.
But what do you get if you mix Rotel diced tomatoes and a couple shots of Jack, shake, and pour over crushed ice with a celery stalk...?
Compared to my personal experience with American Airlines, the above would look like a positive endorsement. Although if I were a trafficker I certainly wouldn't trust American Airlines with *my* valuable narcotics...
Compared to my personal experience with American Airlines, the above would look like a positive endorsement. Although if I were a trafficker I certainly wouldn't trust American Airlines with *my* valuable narcotics...
Morgan Spurlock was protected by the First Amendment. I still haven't seen the film but evidently, it was not libelous because its information was not deemed false.
There are myriad other issues besides infringement that drive us to create custom artwork, Greek labels or turn product.
In recent years, there has been a growing list of networks who will not strike placement / integration deals without an ad buy in our out of the program. Some demand a buy across the schedule. They want the marketing department running the marketing - not the producer, director or art department.
Where your film or television show is going matters. The rules for commissioned rides are different than those applied to acquisitions.
In recent years, there has been a growing list of networks who will not strike placement / integration deals without an ad buy in our out of the program. Some demand a buy across the schedule. They want the marketing department running the marketing - not the producer, director or art department.
Where your film or television show is going matters. The rules for commissioned rides are different than those applied to acquisitions.
Postmaster
Dark Side of the Camera
Ha, coincidently a friend of mine is in the middle of a short that takes place in a bar.
He told me yesterday , that he got a free bar (out of business) but it was empty. So he called several liquor companies and asked them for empty bottles as props.
He ended up with over 120 bottles, that he fills with colored water for the scene.
Frank
He told me yesterday , that he got a free bar (out of business) but it was empty. So he called several liquor companies and asked them for empty bottles as props.
He ended up with over 120 bottles, that he fills with colored water for the scene.
Frank
paulears
Veteran
Whenever I've needed set dressing of any kind, I've always found manufacturers very happy to supply this kind of stuff. Here in the UK, we used to have (with the BBC) a really strict cover up of identifiable brands, down to silly levels, really - but now the BBC are happy to have their pub scenes in the popular soaps and drama stocked with proper brands and looking like real pubs. ITV do exactly the same. Let's be honest here. If Johnnie Walker give their bottles you can be certain that the rival brands will too.
I'm amazed that in the US people are seriously ignoring the advantages of product placement.
It's not down to budget - I did one recently and borrowed all sorts of things in return for the promise that they'd be on set with the brands identified. I'd assume that things are the same, state-side?
I'm amazed that in the US people are seriously ignoring the advantages of product placement.
It's not down to budget - I did one recently and borrowed all sorts of things in return for the promise that they'd be on set with the brands identified. I'd assume that things are the same, state-side?
Placements and integration are huge here, but the deals are often brokered by a third-party service. Again, for television, the decision isn't only between the production and the companies and their products - the networks themselves have begun to determine what, if any, integration is allowable.
JonathanLB
Carbonite Member
This isn't correct, I think that people are getting overzealous, there is actually a rule about this type of thing and I forget the exact number, but my UPM on a music video I shot knew it -- if it's over like 12 bottles, you don't need to clear any specific one. It's only if you're focusing on a few, but if there's a proliferation of them you don't need clearance on them all.
That being said, on our feature we got so much alcohol placement for free, it's really not that tough to do. If you find the companies that deal with product placement, you can get a lot of free product and get it cleared. We got Budweiser, Heineken, Corona, and all of the products those companies make, plus a whiskey company, a vodka company, and could have gotten more hard alcohol but we didn't bother because we really didn't need it.
PS: That's a pretty stupid story about Greeking labels for products you cleared. It's stupid because I hope whoever made that decision was actually paying attention to the contracts the production signed. I saw all of our contracts, and in most of the cases, certainly for anything significant, we were REQUIRED to show their product X number of times, or be liable to pay for what we used. So like with Arrowhead water, we had to show their brand twice in the movie, otherwise pay something like $400 for the water they gave us. Not good. So if anything your paranoia should be over NOT showing the brand you cleared, because that's what gets you in trouble, not showing something you contractually agreed to show. We were also cleared for Dell, by the way. It's very easy to get cleared for most of these products and companies, though I'm a little bit proud of the fact we are cleared for so many things that I see a lot of TV shows aren't and it makes them look cheesy. I notice Dexter uses a fake search engine, for instance, we got cleared for Bing so ours looks real because it is. Their phones also look hokey -- who has texts come in with an all blue background? You can say it looks cinematic, white on blue, but it actually looks Mickey Mouse because nobody has a phone like that. We were cleared for Boost Mobile and also Apple products, thus the iPhone as well. None of that Mickey Mouse crap in my movie!
That being said, on our feature we got so much alcohol placement for free, it's really not that tough to do. If you find the companies that deal with product placement, you can get a lot of free product and get it cleared. We got Budweiser, Heineken, Corona, and all of the products those companies make, plus a whiskey company, a vodka company, and could have gotten more hard alcohol but we didn't bother because we really didn't need it.
PS: That's a pretty stupid story about Greeking labels for products you cleared. It's stupid because I hope whoever made that decision was actually paying attention to the contracts the production signed. I saw all of our contracts, and in most of the cases, certainly for anything significant, we were REQUIRED to show their product X number of times, or be liable to pay for what we used. So like with Arrowhead water, we had to show their brand twice in the movie, otherwise pay something like $400 for the water they gave us. Not good. So if anything your paranoia should be over NOT showing the brand you cleared, because that's what gets you in trouble, not showing something you contractually agreed to show. We were also cleared for Dell, by the way. It's very easy to get cleared for most of these products and companies, though I'm a little bit proud of the fact we are cleared for so many things that I see a lot of TV shows aren't and it makes them look cheesy. I notice Dexter uses a fake search engine, for instance, we got cleared for Bing so ours looks real because it is. Their phones also look hokey -- who has texts come in with an all blue background? You can say it looks cinematic, white on blue, but it actually looks Mickey Mouse because nobody has a phone like that. We were cleared for Boost Mobile and also Apple products, thus the iPhone as well. None of that Mickey Mouse crap in my movie!
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capitalP
Veteran
. None of that Mickey Mouse crap in my movie!
Hope you cleared this with Disney, before posting.