Field Production Mixer

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I understand many independent productions tend to neglect sound and that many people spend too much of their budget on camera equipment alone.

Aside from a shotgun microphone and boompole, do you feel a field production mixer is essential for low budget filmmaking? If so, which one do you have?

Will a good microphone preamp do instead?

I am eyeing products from Sound Devices but they are expensive!
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

That's what a good field pre-amp really is, when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it....a good, pre/mixer.

I think it is essential to have some sort of good quaility mixer in front of your camera. Something like the Sound Devices Mix Pre comes to mind. It's a little two channel mixer that is fantastic.

-Dave
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Hello Dave, thanks for the info, that was exactly the model I had in mind. I think that'll be my first sound purchase, hopefully to go along with an XL2.

Do you have the Mixpre then?
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

I'm just curious, what does the portable mixer like the Mix Pre really do for your sound quality, that the DVX doesn't already do?

I'm also looking at one of these for a future buy, but haven't decided yet, what it does better, besides being more conveniant for monitoring sound. Does it have a better limiter?

Thanks...
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Mike,

More than anything, it allows someone else to be in charge of the sound.  I don't have a DVX, I have an XL2, but I'm sure they are similiar in this regard.  The camera allows me to adjust the level coming in to it, but you can't really do that continually as well as shoot, worry about lighting, etc.  So you want to give that responsibility to someone else, but you don't want them up your ass trying to turn a dial on your camera when your filming.  Sooo...  Using a mixer not only lets you mix sources but it allows your sound tech to set and adjust levels without getting in your way.  I wouldn't worry too much about mic pre's on a small production mixer like this.  The pres in the XL2, and from what I hear the DVX, are quite good.  I highly doubt that the pres in this mixer are any better.  Now, if you want to bring your own pres or channel strips....  But now we're spending real money...

Obviously more elaborate systems allow for more functionality, but in a nut shell, that's it.

Matt

EDIT: I should have asked if you have a good mic preamp (from your question) because if so you may want to use that. So, do you? If so, which one.
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

I have the MixPre and I love it. I definitely recomend it.

I also recomend the Porta Brace bag for it, it's expensive, but man is it convenient.
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Hi Matt,

I don't have a mic preamp. You make a very good point regarding the ability to offload the sound to someone else (at least the way you worded it, made me want to run out and buy one immediately :o ). As far as I know the DVX doesn't have an "automatic level control" but it does have an automatic limiter control. Does the MixPre provide level control (I'm not sure that is a feature I would want to use for a serious production though, dont think i would trust it.)
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Yes, the mixpre has "Unclippable" input peak limiters via two-stage opto-isolator circuit with adjustable limiter threshold (per input).  But this isn't as great as it sounds (I'm not knocking this unit in particular just limiters in general).  A limiter just makes sure you don't clip (don't exceed 0.0db) by eliminating any sound that exceeds 0.0db - but you lose the information like exceeding 100IRE (or whatever that is).  Unlike in analog where you get a nice saturation form of distortion, in the digital world you just get a very ugly sound.  Since you're recording at 48khz (you are right?) you have a fair bit of head room.  If you are trying to record as hot as you can without clipping (generally a good idea) a decent compressor would really be the ticket. A nice transparent soft knee compressor would do what you really want which is to automate the task of riding the fader in such a way that it isn't noticeable.  Search the web and you'll find vast amounts of info on this.  If you bring a rack with you when you shoot, I might recommend a decent channel strip, which would give you a really good pre-amp, compressor, equalizer, monitoring and some other goodies built into it.  The only downside is you couldn't mix more than one signal, although you could get a channel strip for two channels.  If you are only ever recording one or two channels, this would be enough for you (or more appropriately your sound man).  Problem is they're not practical for any kind of run and gun as you're tied to the rack, albeit with long cables.  Still, depending on what you're shooting, it's something to think about, for less than $800 you could get a nice channel strip that would be ideal for dialog, something like a Focusrite Voicmaster or TwinTrak Pro.  If that isn't an option for you, you might consider a small portable compressor.  You could pick up one of those to go with your mixer for under $200.  It won't be great but like with video you get what you pay for.  Still for under $500 you could get something decent.  If all your recording is dialog, don't get too swayed by the big dollar units meant to compress a violin while retaining a pristine sound - you probably don't need that level of unit.

But again, 48k gives you a bit of headroom, I would first experiment to determine if you even need it.  As long as you record a good signal (good signal to noise ratio) a tremendous amount can be achieved in post.  Just remember - if you clip, you're screwed.

Matt

EDIT: Another real nice thing about using a mixer is the ability to route your signal to multiple devices, i.e. both your camcorder and a DAT recorder for example.

EDIT 2: Or, if you really want to be the coolest kid on the block, you could get a portastudio board that would would be your mixer and digital recorder all in one, while at the same time routing your signal to your DVX.  Then you bring along a small rack to handle any processing you want in your signal chain...

Warning - never AND I MEAN NEVER give a sound guy you're credit card so he can just "pick up a few odds and ends".  We're gear sluts, we can't help it...  
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1101256825;start=0#7 date=11/23/04 at 22:30:10]Warning - never AND I MEAN NEVER give a sound guy you're credit card so he can just "pick up a few odds and ends".  We're gear sluts, we can't help it...  [/quote]
Us camera guys are like that too. We go out to get a .9 ND and come back with a follow focus. "I swear I got a good deal. And don't worry, your financing it."
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1101256825;start=0#7 date=11/23/04 at 22:30:10]EDIT 2: Or, if you really want to be the coolest kid on the block, you could get a portastudio board that would would be your mixer and digital recorder all in one, while at the same time routing your signal to your DVX.  [/quote]

Ok...I've got a Fostex MR-8 sitting here. Would that suit? (It's been sitting here for months and I still haven't gotten around to playing with it)

Dan
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Well, sure! The downside to this unit is it records at 44.1k as opposed to 48k but that's not bad necessarily - it's still CD quality audio. Many folks record this way even when they have the ability to record at a higher sample rate. I would experiment with it and see if it provides audio you like working with. The only thing I would caution against with this unit (or any unit) is to record without reverb - no matter how good it sounds. You can always add reverb in post but it's hard to get rid of it once it's tracked.

By the way, anyone with a laptop can get a good audio interface and some DAW software (which you guys should be using for soundtracks and post anyway) and then your computer would be your multitrack mixer and recorder.
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

For a budget of $800 dollars you might want to check this out:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/search/detail/base_pid/240269?src=3WBZ4DS

Again, you could never use this for ENG work or "run and gun" but for location work? It might be ideal. Are there better boards? Sure, I'm not pushing this particular board or brand, and lets face it, you could spend thousands doing this, but I think this unit gives you an awful lot of bang for the buck. For example for that $800 investment you are getting:

Internal 40GB E-IDE Maxtor hard drive
Built-in CDR drive
Total of 16 tracks
8 virtual tracks
40GB hard disk
8 mic inputs
ADAT optical I/O
2 independent multi-effects DSPs
Fader Pairing
Channel Solo
BPM delays 2 - XLR channel ins; 2 - 1/4" TRS send/return; ADAT; S/PDIF; MIDI; 2 - 1/4" monitor jacks; 1/4" stereo headphone jack; 1/4" jack - AUX send (TIP: send 1/RING: send 2); RCA out (L, R); 1/4" footswitch jack
60mm faders for all 16 channels
3-band EQ with parametric mid and high
Master EQ
Channel and master compressors
2 effect sends and 2 aux sends per channel
99 mix scene memory

When you come off location, you hook it up to your computer and use it to do post. Again, you get what you pay for and this won't sound like an SSL board, but you're not recording the New York Philharmonic either. The nice thing about this board (or one like it) is it gives your soundtech all the tools they need in one go. It might not have the best EQ, Compressor, etc. but what it does have is certainly good and it's all in one package.

Matt
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

It would be fantastic on a location.  

The boss and the Wendt are two different things, apples and oranges.  If you were doing a Michael Moore style Documentary you couldn't carry around the Boss Digital Studio, you would want/need the Wendt.  But if you're shooting on a "set" whether it is an actual set or a practical location that is serving as one, then the digital studio is a really nice way to go.  Everything in audio is a compromise, what are you willing to give up for what you are getting.  In this case you are getting a really nice mixer, pre-amps, good digital recording capability, internal effects processing, the ability to burn a cd and a host of other nice to have features.  What you are giving up is portability.  

Matt

EDIT: I would just find a sound guy in a local band who has one, and make him a part of your crew.  Find someone who gets into it and wants to make pictures just like you do.  In addition to running your sound for you, he'll have musical connections that you can use for scoring or obtaining original music.

Plus you can pay him in beer...

(As for the hassle factor, he'll probably be set up well before your lighting is in place.)
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

As far as a 2 channel mixer goes would it accomadate the boom mic and 2 lav's at once. Would there be any reason to have two lavs and a boom going at the same time anyway?

-Cade
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Couple of issues to address:

-I do have a mixpre in stock right now.

-The mixpre's mic pre's are way better than the ones in the DVX100 and the XL2 (not to say the ones on the cameras are absolute crap, but they aren't the greatest).

-I agree with everything everyone has said about it being easy to use, and making your life easier as far as actually being able to control the audio levels.

44.1 audio, in my opinion, is not good enough. I never record at that, and get a little miffed when I get production people wanting to record at that. Don't do it. That fostex thing isn't the best idea for two reasons. One, it's AC powered only. Two, low resolution. I can't GIVE things away that have a max resolution at 44.1.

-Dave
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

agre,agree,agree
and if you try to sit on the back sit of the car or be in the trank and mix with that one , i suppos you will be without the sound .
not every thing that good for poor musisians is good for poor (pure)filmakers - eventually you wont good product and not scratch track that this one sopose to bring
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

[quote author=MattC link=board=audio;num=1101256825;start=0#13 date=11/24/04 at 09:06:19]It would be fantastic on a location.  

EDIT: I would just find a sound guy in a local band who has one, and make him a part of your crew.  Find someone who gets into it and wants to make pictures just like you do.  In addition to running your sound for you, he'll have musical connections that you can use for scoring or obtaining original music.

Plus you can pay him in beer...

(As for the hassle factor, he'll probably be set up well before your lighting is in place.)[/quote]
Well I already own the Boss...so yeah.
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Dave,

Well, I've tracked at 24/96, 16/48 and 16/44.1 (myslef I like 32bit floating point recorded at 96k but that's my preference. I simply can't hear any difference by recording at a sample rate higher than that, and neither can most engineers I know). Notice that I said that they should route the signal to the DVX as well which would allow them to record at 16/48 while at the same time they're recording at 16/44.1. I also said that I would prefere a higher sampling rate, but if they're on a budget it could work for them as a nice mixer while still providing for send/aux.

Anyway, I still say that for the money, they'd be better with a decent digital recording board as a location mixer. I would advise a budget of $1,500 to $2,500 for this (you could spend more obviously) at this price point you can get a good ditial board that will record your sound better than the DVX, equal to DAT and with far more flexibility. If I'm wrong, and Lord knows I have been in the past, please tell me why.

Regarding the boards that were mentioned, no the Fostex wouldn't be great, the Boss would be better. BUT, instead of telling people that what they have sucks, I try to tell them what they can do with the gear they already own, within limitations. I guarantee if the guy with the Fostex starts using his board in this way, he'll upgrade it, but he'll wind up with something much better than a two channel production mixer.

Matt
 
Re: Field Production Mixer

Oleg,

As I said, a board is not for every situation, its about compromise - which you know. But a GOOD board can be a godsend in many situations, not just for poor musicians. Most poor musicians couldn't afford a good one. I just think that if your shooting style requirements allow it, you get much much more from using a good board as a location mixer. I've managemed to record quite well with them and certainly did not wind up with a scratch recording (24/96). But again, I'm still suggesting routing to the camera and making a backup recording equal to DAT. What's wrong with that, provided it can be accomplished logistically?

Matt
 
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