Field Mixer ?

story2rewrite

story2rewrite

Well-known member
I'm kind of new to all this. Still learning.

I started a gear collective with a group of friends in my area. We share and support each other with gear and assistance on projects.

Right now we have...

2 Sennheiser G3 Wireless lav systems w/ mics
2 Oscar Sound Mics (to improve sound / provide backup mics on the lavs)
Rode NTG-3 (boom mic)
K-Tek KEG-150 (3’ > 12’6” carbon boom pole – not internally cabled)
Softie Lyre Mount w/ pistol grip handle (shock mount for mic that can
be handheld or screw into end of boom pole)
Rycote 18 cm standard-hole Softie (windscreen)
3 XLR Cables (2 @ 25’ and 1 @ 15’)
sony mdr headphones
h4n


I'm looking to get a better mixer that can record 4 or more channels. We would like to have the wireless mics and shotgun going at the same time with a better preamp.

I saw this one...

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/673541-REG/Tascam_DR_680_DR_680_8_Track_Portable_Field.html

I read some good things about this through various post and so forth. Any opinions. I'm looking around 500-700 dollar range. We have several projects coming up. A narrative film and 2 documentaries this summer.


And I like the fact it goes right to sd card.

Any and all opinions welcome. Thanks in advance.
 
That's a recorder not a field mixer.
You might check with Trew to see if they have something used in that price range.

Good Luck!
 
Like I said. I'm new at this. Can I adjust levels and record sound though. Would I still need a device like h4n to record to or is this an all inclusive unit?

I will check out trew audio as well.
 
Tascam 680; very good mid range multi-track recorder, I just purchased one and am pleased. However, it doesn't double as a true mixer for video. You will need to decide how many tracks you want-need. Do you need every mic on a different track or can you mix all your mics to two tracks. If you want 4, or possibly 6 tracks, the 680 will fill the bill as a good recorder and then you need to think about how to to control (mix) the inputs. The 680 will serve as a mixer if thing are well controlled and you don't need to ride the levels too much. If you have 5 mics but will record to 2 tracks, you should consider the SD552, but that would bust your bank. In your price range, there will be compromises.

Grant
 
Thanks for the feedback. So if I have 3 people with lavs and I wanted to set seperate levels for each would I be able to do it? Would it be difficult to do?

I would love the sd552 but that puts me over the edge budget wise. Holy macrel that's out of my price range :) Still have to get a good bag, sd cards...and that's just audio stuff.

Still need some effects programs, lenses...
 
Want a Cheap mixer? Behringer MXB1002. It doesn't get much cheaper than that.
Not exactly a field mixer but I bet it would tide you over till you raised enough for a Sound Devices.

Good Luck!

Dave
 
That looks a bit large to carry around. Not looking for cheap. Looking for good but not double my range. I might go up to 1,000 but not above. Just looking for something in that price range that would be the best value and the best quality.
 
Yes you do have control over each channel, but you have to select the channel you want to change, then reset for the next channel since there is only one knob for all the channels. The point is, you can't ride all the levels immediately like you would with a true mixer. For example, if you could set 3 out of 4 inputs and only needed to ride one channel, you would be fine. You could also consider a SD Mix-Pre which can mix two channels and then use the knob on the Tascam for a third channel. That would get you three mixed channels. The SD stuff comes highly recommended. To get a true mixer with more than 2 outputs, you have to spend larger $$$

Note the Tascam has only 4 XLR inputs and then some other inputs.

As Dave mentioned, there are lots of musical recording mixers on the cheap, and if you went that way, I would recommend a Mackie over the Behringer. But mixers like that require AC power and won't work in a bag at all. If you can set up on a cart or a table, and have AC, then that is a economical alternative.

Grant
 
You may want to consider renting something for the time being. The new Zaxcom Nomad should me out soon (so they say), and that is a mixer/recorder all built in one machine. That way, you use top notch gear without having to buy. The only downside to renting is that you don't have it at the drop of a hat. You have to plan ahead of time. The DR680 is cool, but doesn't allow you to "mix" in the classic terms of mixing. It's not like it has 4 or 8 rotary knobs on the front that will allow you to change levels on the fly, which at some point you will need to do. If you don't need timecode, the 680 is a capable recorder, and I know lots of people that are very happy with it. Played with it at NAB, and liked it for what it is. But, if it were me, I would put some sort of mixer in front of it. I'd be curious to see if there is anyone out there using it as a mixer/recorder and what their experiences are like doing that with it.
 
Remember that during production, your most important concern is getting proper level for each track to the recorder. Proper for most dialog is around -20 with -12 peaks. I, too, have the 680 but I am feeding it with a PSC Alphamix with provides direct outs for each channel. This helps in three ways. First it provided more clean gain than the 680 is capable of on it's own. Secondly, since the direct outs on the mixer are after the gain control and before the level control, I can quickly grab the gain knob for any particular channel and make adjustments while monitoring the meters on the 680 to keep each channel's level in it's proper range. Thirdly, it provides me with camera feeds, allowing me to iso track each channel to the tascam, also record a two channel mix on the tascam, and also send a completely independant feed out to the camera. This feed is typically boom on channel 1 and lavs on channel two. Oh, and the Alphamix, like most production mixers, gives me camera returns so I can be confident that the signal is actually getting into the camera.

So here's how it plays out using the 680 alone. Less gain means mics like the NTG2 may have difficulty reaching production levels. One gain knob which means you have to hit the channel button, the you can use the knob to adjust gain. Not too difficult with one or two channels going at once, but I would not want to deal with a boom and 3 or 4 lavs at the same time. However you dial in the mix for the two track mixdown on the 680 is what the main left and right outputs will be sending to the camera.

Granted, if I could only afford to buy one thing at a time, I would likely start with the 680 but plan on adding a mixer as soon as I could.
 
Yikes. I feared it would be more complicated.

So what would you suggest. What would you start adding if you had the kit I had. Take the 4-6 inputs out of the equation. What about 2 or 3? Would that change the price and the equation?

Thanks again for all the feedback.
 
Just my 2c

I see a couple things-
Softie usually pulls directly over a mic, and don't have lyre mount. Do you have a full blimp or a softie? Softies aren't nearly as good in higher wind, full blimps are great. (Rode blimp recommended if you can, Rycote's blimps are more expensive)

Imho, the best thing I could recommend is added a used SD302 to your kit. This would allow you to mix two lavs down to one channel, and leave the boom on it's own channel. Run that output into the H4n for now. H4n will be a weak link, but that should be your next upgrade. Replacing that with a Fostex FR-2 LE or Tascam HD-P2 down the line would be a good move.

Mixing 2 lavs down to one channel isn't too challenging if your mixer keeps his eyes on the levels (302 has very good meters) and keeps the levels even.

And just in my experience, never buy stuff by Behringer. Their design philosophy over the years has been copy their competitions designs and use much cheaper components. Any gear I've ever bought, or used, by them failed quickly with regular use.
 
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I taught for awhile and the students were very hot to record lots of tracks (you can record four mics into the H4n). The problem is that more is not really what you want, you want good. It's a lot harder to get good when your juggling a lot of inputs that when you can actually hear all at the same time.

Since it's fairly obvious that your group doesn't contain an experienced sound person, I would recommend aiming at two or less channels. I did post on a film recently that came in with 4 - 12 tracks of production and hardly any of it was usable with out a lot of work.

For two channels the Tascam HD-P2 is a solid box that does what you need. Since you already have the Zoom you might want to consider putting a decent preamp in front of it instead, like the Sound Devices MixPre.

Or get a sound person. If you can get a sound person in your group they will bring a lot of bennies with them. They probably have equipment or at least are very interested in getting some and they will be focused on sound. Sound and image are different worlds, don't try to do both at the same time.

AND think about your post (sound) before you shoot, it will save you headaches and $$$ later.
 
Thanks for the advice. We are looking in the area for a local sound guy. I do like learning all aspects of filmmaking. So even if I don't do it I can respect it and at least understand it a bit. I have enormous respect for sound. Trying to work with it and make it clean is very difficult. Picture you can get away with some things but sound you just can't.

I use soundbooth for post and I'm liking the various filters and how it works with dynamic link. Just right click on the timeline in premiere and click on soundbooth and it brings it right in and makes the edits automatically in premiere. If anyone's using this it works great.

It's really good working with the sound too. I'm a screenwriter trying to learn the art of filmmaking so I'm always thinking about story and now that I start using sound it really comes into mind as I create scenes, tension, storyboard...I not only storyboard the pictures I want but I also write the sounds involved, whether it's live and what I'll need or if it's in post with some sort of effect or foley sound. Or a soundtrack point where it might build and then fade away and come back in.

I have a lot to learn and some reading to do. Can anyone recommend some good sound magazines? Like photoshop has advanced photoshop. For directing there's filmmaker. Is there a good sound magazine. I like books but I feel like magazines seem to be more current with information.
 
Get Jay Rose's two books on sound for film & video. They will teach you all the theory you need. Then trial out everything you can in advance. There has been some excellent info on this thread alone. I also would recommend less inputs at your level of experience. We always try to get a sound guy on our work, beyond simple single or dual lavs. Buying an edirol is a great box, I've used it a bit, great sound. Not tried the tascam. I own a h4n w/mix pre, get very good results.

You didn't say if you need battery power or not. If not, then getting live recording mixers used on sound boards might be a bridging strategy. We have lots of musicians Here that have good mixers for use on stage. Coming off them into an edirol, or tascam might be just the ticket.
 
I have to agree with what Noiz2 says. I've been in the same position he describes, and it can be frustrating.

Let's not forget, that years ago production dialogue was recorded with one microphone, and there was one mono track. When the stereo Nagra came out, it blew everyone away. "What in the world are we going to do with two tracks?!"

Multi-track recording for production sound can be a life saver, but the production sound mixer really needs to know what they are doing. If not, it just ends up being a ton of unusable data.
 
If you're looking for weaving sound into a film, I highly recommend reading "The Conversations" about Walter Murch. He was both editor and sound designer on a lot of films Godfather, Apocalypse Now, and even the Touch of Evil re-cut trying to make the movie match Welle's intentions. He talks a lot about how sound functions as story elements in the films he's worked on. It's not really a technically book, but from the story/sound point of view it's a great read.

On the technical side, I highly suggest -

Dialog Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art
By: John Purcell
A lot of the tips and tricks mentioned here are rather intuitive after you've cut enough bad dialog, but it's a great resource and future reference book when you need some ideas on how to fix a scene. (Warning: once you learn how to clean dialog and really listening closely to it, there's no going back or ignoring it in the future, :beer:)

The Sound Effects Bible: How to Create and Record Hollywood Style Sound Effects
By: Ric Viers
Fun FX book.

Both the above books are very extremely current. Neither one covers the entire post-audio workflow like some other books do, but personally most of those books are too broad imho to be all that helpful.
 
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