Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

You're talking about the Sound Devices 302 field mixer.  I've used it and it rocks.  Amazingly good quality, very compact, and every feature you could possibly need.  However, you can rent one when you need it--you don't have to own everything.

The reasons to use a field mixer with the DVX are more operational than a matter of audio quality.  If you have a sound mixer position on the production, they will be able to do a much better job with an actual mixer, especially if they're also acting as a boom operator.  Dave's points are well-taken.  

If you're shooting solo or with a micro-crew, I still think you can skip the mixer and get very good audio.  If you have a mic with good ouput, you don't have to crank up the DVX pre's much--not that they're that noisy anyway.  The truth is that the audio sucks on the majority of indie-productions.  The limiting factor isn't the mic (unless it's the built-in), it isn't the camera, or the mixer--it's the basic recording technique.  Learn how to record correctly and you'll have good sound with almost any equipment.  Learn how to record correctly with good equipment and you'll have great sound.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

I agree with everything Barry just said.

Even Jay Rose (ever heard of him?) says that adding a Mixpre to a DVX for sake of sound quality improvement is nearly pointless.

The Mixpre (or any similar form/quality of device) is basically a glorified volume knob for 2 mics and a headphone out. With a vx2000-2001, pd150-170, xl1s... it's a very real improvement... with the DVX it's mostly just a volume knob. Sometimes that volume knob is VERY important... but $665 is a bunch to plunk down for a volume control.

Taubkin... what you said is how I've been "feathering" sound without a mixer and without riding volume... 416 in... louder... 416 out... quieter. The inner 30 degrees of the mic does NOT color the sound... you can push it SLIGHTLY off axis and lower the volume. I can twist a boom pole just as fast as you can twist a knob... but that's just one way to do it.

To everybody else with a DVX... haven't you been listening to any of my clips? They're ALL just a mic plugged into a DVX. That's it.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

[quote author=taubkin link=board=audio;num=1093874415;start=15#17 date=09/01/04 at 17:10:17]Hey Dave, let me repeat the question I made in the other topic:

When you ride your knobs, isn't the bacround noise going to change in intensity? Isn't it easier to pull the mic back from the source to adjust the volume?

I am really confused, because I had an audio class someday and I toought that I heard my teacher saying something about this. Before any offenses to my teacher, I might have misunderstood. So I wanted to clear it up. Thanks![/quote]


If you use a good mic technique, and a good mic, then your BG's won't be that noticable. You're not going to be doing drastic changes. Plus, chances are (if your crew knows what they are doing), that they will get some wild sound of BG's and other stuff that will be used in sound editorial.

The main goal of production sound is to get as good, clean dialogue as possible. Don't worry about trying to get BG's, footsteps, or anything else while you are recording your dialogue. That stuff just mucks it up. Worry about that stuff later on, and record them seperately if you can. Even if it's on a minidisc, at least you have it.

-Dave
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

When you ride your knobs, isn't the bacround noise going to change in intensity? Isn't it easier to pull the mic back from the source to adjust the volume?

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[thats quit right to do it when you have lheavily incrising in the sound -but since not all the shotes ate made extirials in some point in 9 feet high room the sealing has making my hand push the fader down :-)
good booman is alwais would change position of the mike or even would take it oot of exis to make the sound audible , but befor or during the shot i control the loudnes of the signal -it cant be done without mixer , knob or what ever you call it
there is a very nice product from sonosax  for thos who wont skip the mixer (only one thing it cost 200 less then 302)

http://www.sonosax.ch/index2.html

for someone who really need some sort of cheap solution varible pad  with potensiometer could be insert between the mike and the camera input -lsomething around 15 db would be enouth for mos of the situations
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

[quote author=rdbot link=board=audio;num=1093874415;start=0#0 date=08/30/04 at 07:00:15]Are the mic pre's and audio in general good enough on the Pannie to be able to get rid of the field mixer.  I'm guessing that the audio would be better going through a field mixer, but is it good enough with out it--ie. will it sound clean and professional?[/quote]

In response to the original question... I'd just like to second what MattSTL said... yes the mic pres are clean and professional.

If you haven't listened to his clips yet, do so.

And anyway, after picking up a DVX you can always grab a seperate field mixer if you feel the need.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

[quote author=romebot link=board=audio;num=1093874415;start=0#9 date=08/30/04 at 19:09:05]what settings should be on the camera if I want to control levels w/ the mixer...is there a unity type setting...or for instance advice like don't use auto functions, etc.  How do you set metering as to optimize signal/noise?

R[/quote]

I believe that TDC on the camera's level knobs is unity gain. I leave my levels there and adjust my preamp to hit the levels that I am looking for.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

[quote author=Matt in STL link=board=audio;num=1093874415;start=0#14 date=09/01/04 at 14:22:56]You guys have got to be kidding me with this "Are the DVX mic pres decent enough" crap. I mean really... gimme' a break.

There's NO comparison between the DVX mic pres and ANY other prosumer cam at this price point.

Rather then pontificate... I like proof. So here it is.

Click HERE for to hear 2 mics plugged directly into the DVX.

Still not satisfied?

Click HERE for another one... very entertaining.

Does anybody have ears? Run your 7506 headphones directly out of your (hopefully decent) computer and close your eyes. This is CD quality sound. Period.

I used to go to CES every year. I've heard $250,000 stereo systems... YES... two hundred and fifty THOUSAND dollar stereo systems... I've met the people who write for The Absolute Sound and Stereophile... I've talked to countless "golden ears" and I'd even define myself as having them... Reality set in for me when I met one very respected guy in the industry... he tried to tell me how the sound of his amp was improved by LOOSENING THE SCREWS ON THE TOP PLATE. That's when I realized how "subjective" sound... as well as insanity is.

I'm just not the kind of guy who can sit around loosening the screws on my gear while I ignore my ears.[/quote]

Thanks for the demo. I concur. A little less tongue-wagging and a little more "show me" would be nice around here.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

Thanks for the little plug Helmet.

I know when I put up these demos that there are people who play 'em through a laptop... or even some crappy little speakers sitting at the sides of their monitor... they listen and think, "hmm... not bad... now back to that quality question"...

Then there are probably only a VERY few who have a good card with clean headphone out... they for some reason decide to actually plug in and check out what I'm saying.

Those who do that will hear a broken guitar string hanging down... a sore throat stuggling to get cleared... careful attempts at gentle singing where you can hear spit cleared and lips open... before the words come out. The mix of fidelity and silence is WAY better then you could even hear when you're standing right there!

The stormy clip simply is what it is... while I think it's almost equally impressive and loaded with detail... the second clip is a debate ender if it's sound quality that we're debating.

You need REAL headphones to understand... otherwise you're just making a judgement about your computer speakers.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

[quote author=Matt in STL link=board=audio;num=1093874415;start=15#28 date=09/03/04 at 17:53:21]Thanks for the little plug Helmet.

I know when I put up these demos that there are people who play 'em through a laptop... or even some crappy little speakers sitting at the sides of their monitor... they listen and think, "hmm... not bad... now back to that quality question"...

Then there are probably only a VERY few who have a good card with clean headphone out... they for some reason decide to actually plug in and check out what I'm saying.

Those who do that will hear a broken guitar string hanging down... a sore throat stuggling to get cleared... careful attempts at gentle singing where you can hear spit cleared and lips open... before the words come out. The mix of fidelity and silence is WAY better then you could even hear when you're standing right there!

The stormy clip simply is what it is... while I think it's almost equally impressive and loaded with detail... the second clip is a debate ender if it's sound quality that we're debating.

You need REAL headphones to understand... otherwise you're just making a judgement about your computer speakers.[/quote]

I'm listening through good equipment: Mac G4, RME card, Creek headphone preamp, Beyer DT990 headphones.

I thought I could hear a fair bit of noise on the "stormy" clip, or maybe it's the rain or the s/n on the mic. Hard to tell. The guitar/voice track sounds much cleaner.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

Seems like the rain for me...

I'm listening through MDR-7506 connected on the headphone out of the G4. Not the best but pretty good...
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

Okay good... I had a friend locally tell me that she thought it sounded alright but didn't see what the big deal was... then I found out she was only listening through her laptop. :D I asked her if she noticed NOTHING sounded real through there!

Hey just to clarify... I'm not saying this is PERFECT sound... I'm just saying that it's way past good enough. When's the last time you put an actual Hollywood movie through this level of scrutiny?

Hmm, maybe I'm out of the loop.

I'll still always be looking for ways to improve sound... Tell you what... Can anybody on here do a quickie test of a mic ran through the LINE input via a good mixer... such as Mixpre... and then do the same thing running the mic straight in?

That would be helpful as could be... and I'll host the clip.

I'm never trying to say I'm right and you're wrong... but I think it's fair to want proof if somebody says there's a big difference.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

depends what are comparing to ( are you talking 32 or 32a? those are complitly different mixers )
the 32 is very noicyand limited mixer , doesnt have 48ph power ( 12 only)
the 32a is a newer vertion( discontineid as well and replesed by 33) , hard problems with potensiometers ( the early models )
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

I have the 32a. But I haven't used it in years. Most of the shoots I work on now don't even hire a sound person anymore ( cheapskates). So I usually ride the levels on the camera if needed.
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

So even if you use Mix Pre with a camera that has ony a mini jack you can still get just as good as sound as if you had xlr inputs?
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

yes , but that depends on the  camera audio  input cirquet . there is no different in qulity if you use balance or un balance lins in perfrct world, the  unblance -10dbv signal from mix pre would give the same quality as the balance outs .
 
Re: Field mixer vs. on board Pre's

[quote author=oleg link=board=audio;num=1093874415;start=30#36 date=09/12/04 at 12:42:21]yes , but that depends on the  camera audio  input cirquet . there is no different in qulity if you use balance or un balance lins in perfrct world, the  unblance -10dbv signal from mix pre would give the same quality as the balance outs .[/quote]

I'm not 100% sure, but I could swear Oleg's English is getting better. ;)
 
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