FCP7 to Soundtrack Pro alternative

omnikron said:
Good thoughts Noiz2. Ryan, Insane, so X2Pro is currently the only way to get sound out of a timeline in FCPx and into a sound editor?
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As far as I know, yes, though I have only worked on only one project from FCPX since it's release.. However, you can export each "role" as a wave file and import those into a sound editor, which is a bad idea in the first place since it's not a typical workflow...

X2Pro (http://www.x2pro.net/) now preserves BWF metadata in the AAF it exports, which makes us post sound folks very happy :) And depending on how many mics were used on set, say 8 for now -- Pro Tools can expand tracks calling up each of those ISO mics. It's a bit more detailed than that, but that's the general gist. FCP7 was unable to do this unless the editor used Automatic Duck. Avid Media Composer can do this natively using "Link to..." AAFs.

EDIT: I'm not sure if Premiere does this? From my experience, Premiere does not do referenced AAFs. Scott, do you have some insight on this?
 
Sorry, it's a bit over my head as I've only round-tripped with FCP 7 and STP. What is BWF and AAF? I have a rather simplistic view of this... I picture a timeline with specific clips on specific tracks at different points in time (from final cut pro). I want my sound editing program to simply import all that data so I can then re-arrange the clips as needed on different tracks and apply track based filters. I imagine I need a way to export AIFF or WAV files which the sound program will use... which is what automatic duck and X2Pro do, right?
 
omnikron said:
Sorry, it's a bit over my head as I've only round-tripped with FCP 7 and STP. What is BWF and AAF? I have a rather simplistic view of this... I picture a timeline with specific clips on specific tracks at different points in time (from final cut pro). I want my sound editing program to simply import all that data so I can then re-arrange the clips as needed on different tracks and apply track based filters. I imagine I need a way to export AIFF or WAV files which the sound program will use... which is what automatic duck and X2Pro do, right?
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BWF --- Broadcast WAV Format. Allows for metadata to be included into the media file.
AAF -- Advanced Authoring Format. Allows for more of a 'package' to be collected and transported between different systems.
OMF -- Open Media Framework. A 'platform' indepent 'packaging' format. Used by many apps.
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Most of these are trying to allow for easy transfer between different applications that process video or sound, or special effects, while retaining important pieces of information that would be lost if only a 'video/audio' render to a 'mov' or 'avi' file were used.
 
omnikron said:
I imagine I need a way to export AIFF or WAV files which the sound program will use... which is what automatic duck and X2Pro do, right?
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Yes. There are different flavors of OMFs and AAFs: Consolidated, Referenced (Linked to..), Embedded. (I've seen some NLEs have hybrids of these)

Consolidated = the program will copy the media and cut off/trim (based on the length of handles) whatever is in your timeline and copy it to a specified location. The key is that NEW media is being created (this is a no no for me.. you want to avoid having new media being created, if at all possible)

Referenced = the program will export an OMF/AAF that will "point" to media. The media can be AIFF or BWF or MXF. For Pro Tools folks, they would relink to the source production audio after receiving the referenced OMF/AAF.

Embedded = all of the media is copied within the OMF/AAF file. This results in a rather large OMF/AAF file. Now this is where it gets a little tricky.. some NLEs will nuke all of the audio files BWF metadata (such as Scene/Take/Tape/Timecode) as it embeds the audio in the OMF/AAF. This is a no no! :kali:
 
Awesome, thanks for that explanation. So I'm still a bit confused. Will referenced audio files work with most major video codecs with embedded audio such as XDCam and ProRes? Obviously if I'm recording audio off camera, that's where I'd have AIFF files but a lot of productions I do record the audio directly to the camera.

As for the embedded option. I've never used metadata. Why does it matter if you lose the metadata as long as the clip imports into protools in the correct place and time in your timeline?
 
It all depends on what you're doing... If you record directly to the camera, then an embedded or consolidated OMF/AAF is fine for you. Premiere/Avid/FCP7 can do this natively. FCPX, on the other hand, won't let you do this unless you buy X2Pro. (Perhaps Google has some workarounds?)

If you're doing dual system and have a number of mics being recorded... then referenced AAFs will be good. It's a different workflow and ultimately depends on what you're doing and it's project specific. For example, for films, sometimes there can be 6 microphones being recorded on set to a separate recorder. That recorder can also record a mix track (which is full of metadata common to the metadata of the other 6 ISO mic tracks), which is a track that can record those 6 mics into one track. That mix track is used by the picture editor so he/she can use it to edit with in their timeline. The 6 mics can then be called up and used by the post sound team at a later time. It uses metadata do make this all happen, such as Scene/Take/Timecode/Tape/TC Rate/Sound Roll/etc...

Metadata is the heart and soul for a lot of workflows. Yes you're correct to ask "why does it matter" and like I said, for some projects, it makes ALL the difference. However, I have done plenty of projects where all of the metadata was absent.

I guess my questions are: What project are you going to apply this thread to? How did you record the audio? How many mics did you use?
 
Also.. Video codecs is a separate discussion than this and it does not affect the sound quality.
 
Ahh, that makes a lot of sense. I had never understood what a mixtrack was before but it's an awesome idea! I think you answered my questions really well. At the moment, I'm eyeing investing in a different NLE editing program rather than FCP7 to start working on smaller projects with to get accustomed to it. Sound is a big part of the equation for me as I really notice the different track-based mixing makes... it's so quick and powerful. FCPx vs. Premiere Pro 6 is probably where I'm at right now.... but I'm not happy with either. I really just work so well with FCP 7 but it's interesting to note that there's no professional audio solution for FCPx. That will probably be addressed in the future but at this time, I have no way of being sure of that.
 
That's great. Yes FCP7 was a great NLE. Have you thought about Media Composer? I really dislike FCPX, partly because I have strong feelings about how Apple is somewhat forgetting the professional creative market, but that's a different thread :) FCPX looks and feels like iMovie HD Pro 13. There was so much backlash on it when it came out.

Here's a funny video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxKYuF9pENQ

Premiere looks promising and its audio capabilities are reaching a good point, but not quite there. If I remember correctly, the creator of Automatic Duck now works for Adobe? I believe there was a note about this on Automatic Duck's website a while back. So hopefully, Premiere will inherit the benefits and features of Automatic Duck if you know what I mean.

EDIT: I found Automatic Duck's farewell note here: http://www.automaticduck.com/thankyou/
 
You know, I've heard of media composer but haven't checked it out... I will have to do that soon. Thanks for your ideas
 
Just food for thought on anyone thinking about PT or MC, Avid has been in a bit of financial turmoil this year.
Lots of speculation on if they are going to able to turn it around.
 
RE: referenced files. I generally don't want an OMF with referenced files. That is one big hunk of stuff that is going to come over to me that I am not going to use. If an editor uses a second of audio from a 20 min HD clip I would have to transfer over the whole hunk of video. And PT wouldn't open it anyway. So the referenced or not has a LOT to do with your specific workflow. If your working on a connected media server then yes it you probably don't want to start proliferating files. But if your sound post is happening away from your picture post then probably the editor will want consolidated OMF's.

RE: Avid and rocky times. If I were an Avid user I might be concerned. Protools and Digidesign did quite well before Avid gobbled them up and they have a HUGE userbase. If AVid went under, which I would be skeptical of also since it's about the only common NLE for budgeted feature films, Digi would get bought up by someone. Even WaveFrame got resurrected, and Media 100 is going again - kind of.
 
Noiz2 said:
RE: referenced files. I generally don't want an OMF with referenced files. That is one big hunk of stuff that is going to come over to me that I am not going to use. If an editor uses a second of audio from a 20 min HD clip I would have to transfer over the whole hunk of video. And PT wouldn't open it anyway. So the referenced or not has a LOT to do with your specific workflow. If your working on a connected media server then yes it you probably don't want to start proliferating files. But if your sound post is happening away from your picture post then probably the editor will want consolidated OMF's
Click to expand...

I can understand not wanting a large clip of video+audio, for a 'one second' edit... but then when just the 'edit' portion only is included, does that not affect being able to 'ajdust' in an outpoints of the audio if necessary?

On the other other hand... having mirrored sets of disks, and just trading 'updated' files with references seems to be a big benefit for work flows that are not done on 'one machine'. Even in the same building, having a central server seems to be better.
 
Clark,

That is what "handles" are for. I generally ask for 2-10 sec. handles on OMF's. Since the "mix" is only sending the mix track back it's more of a one way trip than a round trip. Any "update" picture makes requires hours of "conforming" on the audio side, with out software aids it can take days or weeks on a really large project. Shared files don't really come in to it since picture is generally sending very little more than dialog and some temp FX and temp music. I had someone once hand me essentially what FCP "sends" to STP. It was 1.5 terabytes of files, the video alone was 65 gigs. That is just insane for audio post. The entire sound FX sessions and Foley for Titanic took up about 300 gigs, and we were about 250 tracks wide and four ours, or so, long.

ENG, in house projects yes, central server is definitely the way to go. Even in a sound only situation, stations are networked to common library drives and each other. But truly shared files are a very tricky thing to deal with. NLE's and DAW's are generally not happy at all about outside programs modifying files in an open session, or even in a closed session.
 
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