FCP or AVID?

A

adambrochu

Member
Note to Admins: I'm not trying to spam post, I want to have post on both AVID and FCP forum to get insights from both FCP and AVID users to get a objectional and hopefully unbiased opinon. Thank you for your understanding!

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hey guys, I've been fretting over this like crazy.

I'm currently a college media student. Everyone is being trained on a Final Cut Pro systems, so i'm feeling that with all the new generation being familiar and comfortable with FCP, it just might replace Avid in the future.

However, AVID is the industry work horse system, it's defintely extremely built and suited for broadcast industry, and probably all networks most professional companies have invested in AVID systems though I could be wrong.

So what the heck to do?!?!?!

Solutions?

Learn/Master both - might be a pain in the butt, but obviously main editing concepts etc is the same, just different interface

Workflow wise which is better?
I'm probably going to be a freelance, guriella media dude - but of course I might end up working for a production or network company, who knows?!



I need to decide because I've saved up finally enough to get either a FCP suite or a Avid Xpress Pro suite, then also goes into question platform is better, MAC or PC? but MAC can do PC, and they also have AVID for MAC.. and since MAC can do FCP, is MAC the best?...

Anyhow, please share your arguments/reasons/insights
Thanks you again for your time!
 
I'm surprised this hasn't gone up in flames. I'll lob the first grenade...

I use both, FCP 5.1.4 for most small projects and Avid Media Composer for feature film or larger more complex projects. Don't confuse Avid Xpress with Media Composer and the higher end Nitris systems. If your choice is between Avid Xperss and FCP go with FCP.

As a starter your not likely to get much editing time driving a Media Composer or Symphony, those are expensive systems and facilities generally put more experienced editors behind the wheel of these systems.

I started editing with Avid before they even had an office in LA and I'm going to say something that most Avid lovers would disagree with, Avid Xpress Pro w/Mojo is crap. Its Avids attempt to move down the food chain and try to compete in the pro-sumer
market with Apple and Adobe.

If you feel that your choice is between these two applications and since your just starting out I'd choose FCP.

However, I would suggest that if you have the opportunity that you check out Adobe CS3 Production Suite. The reason for this recommendation is that I know so many FCP editors who don't have a clue how to use Photoshop, Illustrator and After Effects as part of an efficient workflow. Since Adobe has done such a good job of integrating all of these applications together you'll get a well rounded introduction into all aspects of viedo post production.

The most important aspect of learning how to edit is doing it, try not to get suckered in by the manufacturers hype. If you listen to them you'd think you could edit HD with a blender. Also, go with you you got. If the school has both, use both, but use the one you can get the most time on.
 
Learn and master both.

Avid is powerful, and is the king of media management. FCP is far easier to edit with, and I find much faster. I use both, and find I get more accomplished on FCP than I do an Avid by the end of the day. Too many clicks to simply move media around on an Avid. However, if you want a solid offline/online workflow, Avid is the way. But, with FCP, I don't offline. Everything is online quality...even the HD I work with.

Know both.
 
Learn both. Avid is still the industry standard for major studios. I started with Media 100, then FCP which was an easy transition. I then decided to pick up AXP (since it is cheap for students) and it took a while to learn since the editing style is so different. I now use that style in FCP since I find it overall better. The Final Cut Studio is worth the price of just Avid Xpress Pro though, and you get SO MUCH MORE.

My biggest problem with Avid is there CONSISTENT LYING about when support for the JVC HD100 at 24fps is coming. We have heard "Coming Soon" for 2 years now...2 years. The company is disgusting with its respect for independent customers. Most of their money comes from the government and hollywood.
 
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If you're looking at it from a career stand point, wait and see what comes out at NAB. But more important, look at who you're going to be sending a job application to. That's the big determining factor for most of my students.

I can tell you that here in south Louisiana, Hollywood South, with the film industry booming major big time, I get lots of film and broadcast students in my FCP classes. They all have the same story. School is using Avid, the jobs they're applying for use FCP.

My second scenerio, which we're seeing a drop off in, was the first year after Katrina. Working editors were moving from one production company to another. Old company used Avid, new company uses FCP.

Third scenerio were the ones staying with the same production company, who were rebuilding production studios severly damaged in the post-Katrina floods. They were using Avids, and in the re-building process decided to change to FCP.

I'm not saying don't learn Avid, I'm just saying look at your local area, or the area you want to move to, and see what is being used by the companies you want to work for. It's a much more realistic indicator than what our opinions are on the future of NLEs.

As for PPRo and the new Adobe suite, I don't know any broadcast or film studios around here using it at all, or even planning to switch to it any time soon. I have had a number of PPro users in my FCP classes wanting to get jobs as editors, again, the jobs they are applying for don't use PPro but FCP. If you want to do serious broadcast, especially serious film work, Cinema Tools gets used a lot, and it one of FCS's strong points.
 
BenB said:
As for PPRo and the new Adobe suite, I don't know any broadcast or film studios around here using it at all, or even planning to switch to it any time soon. I have had a number of PPro users in my FCP classes wanting to get jobs as editors, again, the jobs they are applying for don't use PPro but FCP. If you want to do serious broadcast, especially serious film work, Cinema Tools gets used a lot, and it one of FCS's strong points.
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I think to take what you are saying a little farther, not only look at where you want to work but what kind of work your thinking about doing. If your a single artisan working on a project with primarily a single format, its hard to beat FCP. But if you have to share Photoshop or Illustrator elements, complicated compositing elements and formats etc with other artisans then understanding the workflow related issues that go along with that are critical. I'm not suggesting that PPro is sweeping the nation but the level of integration in the new CS3 production suite makes it really easy to learn and use these tools together. The take away is the experience of collaborating with others not whether you can use an NLE.

Much of the production here in LA isn't done in just FCP or an Avid, they use Flame, DaVinci, AE, Photoshop, Illustrator and a whole host of proprietary applications and much of that comes together in the edit or finishing suite. Since your school probable doesn't have most of that equipment you need to find something that will enable you to learn the workflow and the CS3 suite does that nicely.

If you want to be an editor then learning which buttons to push in an NLE are table steaks, having a comprehensive understanding how all of this comes together will help you differentiate yourself from 90% of the editors who took a certification class, or learned it in "film" school.

Again if all you want to do is edit your DVX100 or HVX200 movies together thats one thing but if you want to be competitive as an editor it goes way beyond the NLE.
 
Avid is good. While yes it is the king of media management and has been around forever, but it is loosing ground. Major post houses are switching over to FCP. Personally I'm getting fed up with Avid. Seems like with every upgrade a bunch of new bugs pop up each time. It's really a pain. You get way more bang for your buck using FCP Studio. Learn them both but I'll guarantee you'll see ads for FCP editors more often than Avid editors. Also Avid always has this thing about buying "Avid qualified systems". What a joke.
 
For what it is worth I edit mostly with Final Cut. I like it much better than AVID, and the workflow works better for me, but you may prefer something different. My advice to you is to go test several different systems before you make your decision.

On the AVID qualified systems......dont buy anything but an AVID qualified system from an appropriate system integrator like Omega Broadcast, VIdeoTex Systems etc. You will pay for it later if you have a problem. My church chose to use the local computer guy to build their AVID PC, and AVID will not support the PC they built because it was not on the list of an approved system. The computer guy insisted that there was no difference in the PC he built and the HP workstation he used as his model, but he has been up working on that computer probably 10 times in the past year swapping out hardware to address conflicts in the system. This was the fault of the church, and no way reflects the stability of AVID, but I really believe that there is a reson why AVID recommends certain systems, and if stability is something you are after, you should take their advice.
 
draven4 said:
... I'll guarantee you'll see ads for FCP editors more often than Avid editors.
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This is true.
However, it's worth noting that most of the FCP jobs are for low/no/deferred pay. Thanks for the offer, but I'm not interested.

As others have said, learn both.
 
If you're a filmmaker with all the time in the world to make your low budget film, then FCP is hard to beat. If you are looking be a professional editor in Hollywood, then you had best learn Avid. I've used both systems for years, and, in my opinion, FCP is 30 to 40% slower than Avid. Professional editors can get paid very well, and any producer paying union and above editing rates is loosing money by making his editors work on FCP.
 
Jim2000 said:
If you're a filmmaker with all the time in the world to make your low budget film, then FCP is hard to beat. If you are looking be a professional editor in Hollywood, then you had best learn Avid. I've used both systems for years, and, in my opinion, FCP is 30 to 40% slower than Avid. Professional editors can get paid very well, and any producer paying union and above editing rates is loosing money by making his editors work on FCP.
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Not necessarily- speed is due primarily to skill. And true many feature films are cut with Avid. But if you want a job on indies, TV, reality series, etc you best know FCP too. Good editors are good editors and can be trained to use either. Here's some of the films that were cut on FCP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feature_films_edited_with_Final_Cut_Pro

# Intolerable Cruelty (2003)
# Cold Mountain (2003)
# Napoleon Dynamite (2003)
# Open Water (2003)
# The Ladykillers (2004)
# Shaun of the Dead (2004)
# Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004)
# Super-Size Me (2004)
# Corpse Bride (2005)
# Dreamer: Inspired by a True Story (2005)
# Gunner Palace (2005)
# Happy Endings (2005)
# Jarhead (2005)
 
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NoahK said:
Not necessarily- speed is due primarily to skill. And true many feature films are cut with Avid. But if you want a job on indies, TV, reality series, etc you best know FCP too.
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I'm skilled in both systems and it seems that on FCP, compared to Avid, it takes at least two additional keystrokes to do any given thing. I've worked on several network reality shows, and they all use Avid Unity systems.

That said, I'd rather work on a great film with FCP then a bad film with Avid. It's best to know both systems.
 
First off...Noah, Sky Captain was cut on an Avid. Only the VFX editing was done with FCP. I worked with an Assistant editor who was the VFX assistant on that.

Jim2000 said:
I'm skilled in both systems and it seems that on FCP, compared to Avid, it takes at least two additional keystrokes to do any given thing. I've worked on several network reality shows, and they all use Avid Unity systems.

That said, I'd rather work on a great film with FCP then a bad film with Avid. It's best to know both systems.
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I just got back from working on an Avid for 3 days, and I found the opposite to be true. To do anything on an Avid I needed to click a button, THEN move it. I didn't have the freedom to arrange items on the timeline like I can with FCP. And i worked on an Avid for 8 years...I learned to cut on the thing! But I felt like I was cutting in molasses...SERIOUSLY hindered.

But Avid is still good to know.
 
NoahK said:
Not necessarily- speed is due primarily to skill. And true many feature films are cut with Avid. But if you want a job on indies, TV, reality series, etc you best know FCP too. Good editors are good editors and can be trained to use either. Here's some of the films that were cut on FCP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_feature_films_edited_with_Final_Cut_Pro

# Intolerable Cruelty (2003)
# Cold Mountain (2003)
# Napoleon Dynamite (2003)
# Open Water (2003)
# The Ladykillers (2004)
# Shaun of the Dead (2004)
# Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow (2004)
# Super-Size Me (2004)
# Corpse Bride (2005)
# Dreamer: Inspired by a True Story (2005)
# Gunner Palace (2005)
# Happy Endings (2005)
# Jarhead (2005)
Click to expand...

Also, David Fincher's "Zodiac" and now, Walter Murch is cutting "Youth Without Youth" (Coppola).
 
Become an editor

Become an editor

Basically, become a GOOD editor. If a director or production is choosing their editor based on application they are CRAZY. They should be choosing an editor, not a software platform. I was in the room with a director and producer last year (union feature) looking for an editor. All I heard them doing was looking at imdb credits and seeing what the editor had cut. They couldn't have cared less about application.

But...

Avid's trim tool is so easy to use...I couldn't live without it. I think Final Cut is radically different. Have heard they are trying to make their trim tool better, but until then...and I'm a windows guy and my Avid/Dell workstation combo runs awesome. Plus I have the ability to work with virtually any editing scenario with the exception of the lovely JVC 24p HDV stuff. But Final Cut just supported that beginning last November. I think Avid will give it attention when larger vendors like Sony and Panasonic deliver that type of HDV camera.

And certified systems with Avid really isn't that unreasonable. If you purchase Final Cut you are forced into one type of system and OS. Avid gives you the choice of either. Already more flexlibe than Final Cut.

Also, XPress Pro and the Mojo are far from no good as stated earlier. I just got done co-editing an independent feature on Avid XPress pro and now hired on to edit a new indie thriller and will be cutting that film project on XPress Pro. Plus, the lab wanted more money from the production to prep the dailies for Final Cut, but they told us no additional charge for Avid (we wanted them on firewire drives already digitized).

All in all...we're making movies and that is the sweet part. And sure, a handful of movies are being cut on Final Cut, but even the two ultra low budget union films I worked on last year were using Avid. So depending on where you want to play...just adjust accordingly and have fun!
 
jasperfdo said:
Basically, become a GOOD editor. If a director or production is choosing their editor based on application they are CRAZY. They should be choosing an editor, not a software platform. I was in the room with a director and producer last year (union feature) looking for an editor. All I heard them doing was looking at imdb credits and seeing what the editor had cut. They couldn't have cared less about application.
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As w/everything in life it depends on the situation. If you are trying to get cutting work at a post house that uses an NLE you aren't familiar with you won't get the job. That doesn't make the post house crazy, it makes them pragmatic and smart because they don't want to pay you an editor's rate plus be down one bay so you can learn the software from scratch. Another example is if the post supervisor of a show is comfortable w/one platform odds are s/he is going to stick w/that platform and will only be looking for editors that know that platform. Again, not crazy, just smart.

Obviously being a good editor is key, but expecting to only use one platform (or always user your preferred platform) isn't very realistic, IMO. I know Avid editors that can't get some jobs because they don't know FCP and I know FCP that can't get some jobs 'cause they don't know Avid.


-A
 
draven4 said:
Avid is good. While yes it is the king of media management and has been around forever, but it is loosing ground. Major post houses are switching over to FCP. Personally I'm getting fed up with Avid. Seems like with every upgrade a bunch of new bugs pop up each time. It's really a pain. You get way more bang for your buck using FCP Studio. Learn them both but I'll guarantee you'll see ads for FCP editors more often than Avid editors. Also Avid always has this thing about buying "Avid qualified systems". What a joke.
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+!

I've been editing on Avid since 1991. Went out on my own and bought a Avid MC system. Bought a FCpro system last year and haven't looked back, ESPECIALLY for HD.

The Avid booth here at NAB 2007 is SPARSELY populated by video people, while the Apple area is standing room only.

With this lates release, FCPro has REALLY kicked Avid in the teeth, and I have to admit that is JUST FINE with this former Avid "fanboy".
 
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