Exploiting the situation.... setting up basic audio, for myself and rental.

legrevedotcom

legrevedotcom

Veteran
I've been toying with investing more money in audio for a loooong time... too long. From previous advice along with reading more and more about the subject I've tried to assemble a new package for two purposes:

1. My full time job wants me to help bid in on a food client that need instructional recipe videos. We need to try two things... sound / speak recorded during the cooking.

2. Sound recorded after the cooking and laid on top of the video as speak.

Both rooms used for recording will be reflective with hard walls with no ornaments of any kind. (i've taken that into account... see gear list further down)


Asides from that, I have my own interests in getting this gear... I want to do more and more docu style with seated interviews, and run and gun shoots. Of which most will be 1-man band setups. ( I know.... :S)
The camera I will be using for both deals will be the Sony FS100 and occasionally a 5D mkII for 2nd cam.


I have the following audio items at the moment:

- 1 Senn G3 112 kit and a Rode omni Lav

- 1 FS100 stock shotgun mic (pretty awful IMO)

- Sennheiser HD-25-1 II for monitoring


Therefore I've put together the following list (UPDATED after thread talk):

- Rode NTG-3
- Rode WS-7 windjammer
- SM-3
- SM-4
- Rode blimp
- Rode boom
- MixPreD
- DiMarzio XLR cables 4.5m - 9m
- Koenig & Meyer 25950 table stand
- Koenig & Meyer 210/81 floor stand with boom arm
- Neumann TLM 103 kit with spider
- SE Electronic Pro Dual Pop screen
- Vicoustic flexi screen
- AT4053b
- Rycote Baby Ball Gag 25
- Rycote Baby Ball Gag Windjammer
- Pelicase 1510 with pluck foam
- 3.6 m2 foamzorb panels

Will that be sufficient? I've tried to cover as much as I could for these purposes. Please do feel free to suggest any items that should be removed or updated.


thanks for chiming in, I really appreciate it :)
 
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Is there a boom pole in there somewhere, or did I miss it?
I wouldn't waste any money on camera-mount gadgets. The camera is NEVER the right place for ANY microphone.
What about monitoring? Did you mention headphones of any kind? See my signature line below....
 
Valid question...

I indeed did have the Rode Blimp and 5 part boom pole included to begin with, but then I thought... "I probably wouldn't be able to use those if in a situation where a boom is needed because I would be on the camera".

Regarding the headphones... I forgot to mention that I have the Sennheiser 25HD-1 II, so that's covered.
 
You'll need the boom pole. Consider two common scenarios - seated interviews where you can fly the boom from a C-stand to position it over a stationarysubject or action where you'll need another pair of hands as a boom operator to move the mic to follow the action. It is almost impossible to get top quality sound with anything mounted on the camera no matter what sort of mounting you use.
 
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Any narration? A large diaphragm condenser is 'usually' the first choice.
There are all kinds of odds n' ends you will personally want, once you get into production, and don't forget to figure in expendables, or at least bill the client for them.
I don't understand the choice of a R-26 unless you need multiple internal mics. A nice recorder for weddings and such maybe, but it can't record 6 external mic or line sources. Not a good choice for studio work.
 
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Steve House said:
You'll need the boom pole. Consider two common scenarios - seated interviews where you can fly the boom from a C-stand to position it over a stationarysubject or action where you'll need another pair of hands as a boom operator to move the mic to follow the action. It is almost impossible to get top quality sound with anything mounted on the camera no matter what sort of mounting you use.
Click to expand...

But my thoughts were that in the case of the seated interviews I could just use the Koenig & Meyer stand? Or is that a bad idea? I can see the idea though with the boom and c-stand, since I could possibly get a wider shot if needed.

Rick R said:
Any narration? A large diaphragm condenser is 'usually' the first choice.
There are all kinds of odds n' ends you will personally want, once you get into production, and don't forget to figure in expendables, or at least bill the client for them.
I don't understand the choice of a R-26 unless you need multiple internal mics. A nice recorder for weddings and such maybe, but it can't record 6 external mic or line sources. Not a good choice for studio work.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about the R-26, also one of the things I hoped to clear up. Do I really need a recorder? My challenge was that in case I had to do voice over, I would probably have to record to an external device rather than setting up the camera for this. But again, I'm not sure what to get. The most extreme case would in my case probably be two seated or two walking persons. Should I even bother with recording ambient separately for interview jobs?
Having seen what kind of budget I'm proposing here, what kind of condenser would you suggest?
 
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Reading up again myself :)

How about the TLM 103 fed into the MixPre-D into my laptop for VO? The Vicoustic for screening the mic and setup up foamzorb behind the VO actor.
Or would something as simple as the NT1 be enough in my case?

Then I add the Rode Boom pole again along with the blimp.

Remove the Roland setup.

I'll keep the SM parts. I know the mic doesn't belong on the camera, but I can't deny that I might do low low budget run & gun where the sound is just what it is. Might as well remove what ever handling noise I can.
 
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legrevedotcom said:
But my thoughts were that in the case of the seated interviews I could just use the Koenig & Meyer stand? Or is that a bad idea? I can see the idea though with the boom and c-stand, since I could possibly get a wider shot if needed.
Click to expand...

Sure, the K&M would work fine for tight shots but a boom on a c-stand would allow for wider shots and better perspective of the subject's face. You want to be about 10 feet away and shooting at a mild telephoto to render the most pleasing perspective of the facial features.

Remember throught that mic location is paramount. Even shotgun s need to be within about 20 inches of the subject's mouth for optimum performance. Think about what will let you accomplish that in the scenes you're going to shoot
 
Time for an update... I am currently at this setup with a little amount of money to spare.

Mics:
Rode NTG-3
Rode NT1-a matched pair
AT4052b

Pre and rec:
MixPre-D
Fostex FR-2LE

Stands:
2 x Koenig & Meyer 23150-3
2 x ms-2003

Cables:
2 x 9m
2 x 6m
2 x 1.5m

Accessories:
WS7 Windjammer
Rode Blimp
Rode Boom
Rycote Baby ball Gag 25
Rycote Baby ball Gag windjam
Rode Micon 5 (for my Rode lav)
SM3
SM4
Pelicase 1510 with foam

I'll pick up a rechargeable battery kit from the local battery pusher.

Regarding acoustics, I've read up on how to adjust the rooms we'll be recording in, and fortunately we can easily pull out mattresses and blankets from the stock room.
From what I've read the reflexion screens are more hype than useful? So I took that out of the equation and started taking an interest in learning how to prep a room properly.

The cooking thing will be shot in a room with high ceilings, concrete floors and clean white walls. Apart from dampening corners and non visible sides, would it make sense to put a carpet under the boom stand? Or is it so massive that it wont transmit anything to the AT4053b anyways?

I still feel like a massive newb here, but I hope you can appreciate that I'm trying to learn :)
 
Unless you are on a really flimsy floor, mechanical transmission through the stand is probably the least of your issues. And a piece of carpet won't make any appreciable difference for that. I would NOT try to mic a cooking show with a fixed mic on a stand. Not anywhere near close enough even if you had a perfect room (which you most certainly DO NOT), and impractical unless you nail the chef's shoes to the floor.

My first concern would be reflections from all those hard surfaces walls, ceiling, floor. I would seriously consider using a headset mic to get the microphone as close to the talker's mouth as possible. If you maximize the direct (mouth) to indirect (room reflections) ratio, then the room reflections will be easier to tame. Nothing shouts "amateur hour" as much as poor lighting and poor audio (room echo).

If you are trying to set up to do a one-man show, I would seriously consider not even bothering with the hypercardioid, and get another (or two) lavs. A hyper on a boom pole is for situations where you have an experienced human boom operator. I can't imagine that a hyper would work at all for a cooking show. Of for any interviews with more than one person, etc.

I would concentrate on getting enough of the right kinds of microphones, first, and then get the other things (mixers, recorders, etc.) as you find that you REALLY need them. If you don't have enough of the right kinds of mics, the rest is useless and a waste of money. It is true that large-diameter condensers are frequently preferred for narration. But if the same on-screen talent is doing the voice-overs, I would seriously consider using the same mic to preserve continuity.
 
Good tips... you mention a headset mic... would my G3 suffice for now? I can already imagine that she'll be making a lot of rummaging, but could the Rode Lav deal with that? And then lav her up again during VO?

I know I asked specifically regarding this cooking setup, but I also have one-on-one interviews looming in my spare time and that's where my thoughts of the AT originated.
 
This will certainly label me as a heretic in this community, but IMHO, booming is completely overrated. I am NOT a "golden ears", and I do not appreciate the difference between a good lav and the more traditional, far-away approach (mic on a boom out of the camera frame). IME, a proper lav is FAR more convenient to use, all but eliminates the need for another skilled crew member, greatly reduces the effect of ambient influences (reflections, etc. indoors, and noises outdoors). Even if you are doing a costume period piece where the sight of anything like a lav would be completely out of place, current technology makes really good lavs so small you can hide them effectively almost without exception.

Certainly, there are situations where nothing but a proper shotgun (or hyper) on a boom will do. But it depends on what kind of production you are doing. I love my Rode lav and headset mics. And my NTG3 shotgun is lovely too, but it sits on the shelf most of the time.

Booming started back in the earliest days of "talkies" when a microphone was as big as a football and it was the only practical method. But we have mics now that sound much better, at the size of a match-head. Old traditions apparently die slowly.
 
Thought it was in its place to show how the test video came out. Any comments are welcome, facts about the video are on the vimeo page... the password for the video is: dvxuser

 
Quite good! Congratulations! I would try to work on reducing (or eliminating?) that background noise (extractor fan?) There was a bit of room reflections, but the visual of the stark walls in the background made the resulting sound tolerable (IMHO).

You can probably do without the big dead mouse over the microphone. It would probably be even more distracting to viewers who don't understand what a microphone windscreen is. There shouldn't be any wind in the room, is there? :happy: Or is that the fan noise we hear?

You could try hiding the mic just beneath the top button of the chef's jacket. Or you could find some white fake fur and DIY a matching windscreen if you really need it.

Good show. I've seen lots worse on commercial television.
 
Thank you Richard! :) You are right... unfortunately even if we get the client we have to use this setup each time, of course with a tad more styling of the set. So yeah, the room is pretty reflective.

I don't know what I was thinking, afterwards I could see that myself regarding the "dead mouse" ;P I should really just have used the foam. Wouldn't that also be better at handling reflections than the mouse? I have already ordered a twin pack of Rycotes white foams and furrys, so I'll take your advice and hide the lav next time.

Thanks for your help :)
 
Nothing you can do at the microphone (except moving it even closer to the mouth) will have ANY effect on the ambient sound (noise, reflections, etc.) The only thing the foam or furry will do is keep wind away from the microphone.

The cooking shows and segments I see usually have some upbeat background music mixed 20-30dB below the dialog. That goes a long ways toward masking things like fan noise, etc.
 
Not bad, though I find the BG noise a little annoying, but you can certainly understand the dialog.
That large black hairy thing on the chef's blouse is kind of bizarre. Perhaps get a smaller windscreen, or lose it all together. If plosives or wind turbulence is an issue try pointing it down.
FWIW, Back when I was involved with the 'CIA', I had production buy white Trams.
 
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I wasn't especially bothered by the background noise on the first viewing. I noticed it much more the second time (after reading all the comments here, darn you all!). I agree with Richard Crowley that some background music mixed in would smooth out the sound track a lot. There were also a few clicks and pops at the edit points that suggested you were picking up, or losing, an extra syllable of the narration -- a little more care selecting the edit points would help.

The biggest flaw that really jumped out at me was the hand held camera shake -- putting it on a tripod would really, really help make this look more professional. The dead mouse on her chest did look a little bizarre as well, and might seem even stranger to someone who didn't know what it was. I doubt a windscreen is doing you any good in that controlled indoor environment anyway, so I'm pretty sure you could eliminate that altogether without hurting anything. This is the kind of video where a visible lavalier microphone doesn't really detract from the atmosphere, and might actually lend a little real-life credibility to her presentation.

All said, though, the main thing is that the information came across clearly (to the extent I could tell since I don't understand the language), and the food and its presentation looked delicious. I think this piece did a good job of fulfilling its intended purpose.

- Greg
 
Thank you all... I see the dead mouse thing clearly now. To be honest, it's all about not knowing enough about sound and how it works. I'm ashamed to admit that I thought that a windshield would lower reverb as well :/

You are right about the edit points. The thing is, I was told by my boss to aim for 90 mins work time in total (that includes edit...) Naively I agreed to try and reach that point. The cooking alone took about 60 mins hehe. After that my captures weren't exactly planned well enough to make it easy for me to select clips and edit points fast. I ended up spending around 5 hours incl. filming and editing.
Me and the cook talked and have arranged to script the next one, make the takes more staged (we were doing this on the fly...) and keep going to avoid the "eeeh" and "soooo".

In regards to the handheld... I definitely can see what you mean, but it's a "thing" going on over here in Denmark. Even though we are only like 5 million people we are showered in cooking shows. And what clients mostly want at the moment is that here and now casual feel or what should I call it. The budget on the client is very low, so we can really only afford to go with the stream here. I would have put it on my Steadicam if I had the time, but that will have to wait till we get going and find proper form.

For now I'm happy with getting the sound as good as I can with my limited knowledge.

That leads me to my question. I have a CMIT 5U in the mail, along with a boom pole, and a Boom Buddy that goes on my c-stand. The Rode lav is more susceptible to off axis sounds and reverb than the CMIT? So wouldn't that smooth things out a bit to begin with?
Then I get rid of the terrible Bron Color Pulso lights and their annoying fans and experiment with some gentle background music.

Of cours I'll clean up the set a bit more as well hehe... that cable in the background is so tasty ;)
 
So try it both ways. You don't need the chef to experiment with sound. Have someone (or YOU) put on the lav, and put up the shotgun (out of frame, I suppose?). Record one mic on each channel of the camcorder, and listen to them both. I would bet that you will like the lav better. Especially in a room as reverberant as that, I don't hold high expectations for the shotgun. That is exactly the kind of situation where a hyper is preferred (anyplace you expect acoustic reflections, and you have plenty of them.) But unless you had a talented boom operator with a hyper, I very strongly suspect that the lav will give you better results, and easier to use, as well.

The lav is LESS susceptible to reverb because shotguns do not tolerate ANY reflected sounds. They use the principle of comparing the angles that sound arrives to produce the sharp directionality. And when sound arrives at un-natural (ie. reflected) angles, the shotgun is completely confused. THAT is why it is recommended to use hyper-cardiods indoors and shotguns outdoors (where there are NO reflections).

Furthermore, the lav is LESS susceptible to ambient noises because of the inverse-square law. The lav is SO MUCH CLOSER to the mouth of the talker that is greatly increases the direct-to-reflected ratio of sounds. So you can adjust the audio gain to your good, strong recording of the speech, and that will reduce the relative levels of the ambient sounds. As I said, booming has its place, but IMHO this is NOT one of them.
 
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