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Orpheus

Active member
In approximately three weeks I will be the videographer for a friend's wedding. I will be shooting with an Panasonic AG-DVX100 and a consumer level Sony DCR-HC52. I have a little experience in that I shot a wedding last year, but beyond that my experience is limited to short videos I have made with friends.

My biggest concern at the moment is the audio because I have read repeatedly that the onboard audio will be near useless. I definitely encountered this problem last year but had to make due with what was recorded. I also shot a theatre play and wished it had better audio.

Weddings are not the only thing I want to shoot though, as I like to make small projects with friends. My projects tend to be primarily shot outside. Having read any and all interesting posts about 50 pages deep in the DVX section and about 15 pages deep in this audio section, I am still at a loss as to what would really suit my needs.

I would like to get something better than the built-in mic on the camera, but at the same time most of my projects are unpaid and few and far between. Of course, I hope to be shooting more projects as I have time and motivation.

What type of audio setup is going to be the bare minimum to get OK audio for my projects?

What I would like to have is recommendations on models and pricing, possibly where to buy--my budget is very limited as the camera I bought was only $660 dollars and my audio gear should ideally not cost more than the camera.

For instance, should I get some sort of shotgun mic and mount it on the camera? Should I try to buy a wired lavalier mic? The general consensus seems to be my budget would not cover a wirelss lavalier mic... Should I get an H2 and place it near the podium to get the vows?

If I get a shotgun mic of some kind and then buy accesories like wind screen and fishing pole down the road, maybe I could build my audio equipment that way?

Having not used the DVX100 yet, if I think the image quality is satisfactory, I would purchase a DVX-100B and use the DVX-100 as a secondary camera in the future.

I am still learning about these things and just need some advice on what to get first to start building up some gear to practice and to learn.

So, what can I pull together in the next few weeks to help ensure this wedding video is less amateurish than the first?

Thank you all for your time, input and opinions. If you don't have time to leave a full response now, just let me know you're thinking about it and I will be checking this daily for updates!

P.S. Once I have figured out what audio gear I will be using, I will probably need more advice on placement and post production layering of audio tracks.
 
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There's a ton of stuff in the stickies or if you do a search for 'wedding'.

For weddings, I do way more live than recording, but generally you can go with a lav on the groom to capture the bride and groom. Place it a little lower than usual to even out their respective levels. You might want either a board feed or a couple cardioids placed somewhere for an audience perspective for any live music or whatever may occur. It really all depends on how many channels you've got available to you.

For live, I'll generally wire the officiant with a Countryman E6 or similar, and then use a lav planted at the top of his bible or folder or whatever he's holding (they always have something) to get the bride and groom during the vows. I generally record either iso's of every channel or at least of the subgroups on my board and make that available to the video people for their post work, but I wouldn't expect that to be the norm. If you can talk to the venue sound person/people ahead of time (ie. NOT the day of the event), you can figure out what they're doing and decide if you want to ask them for feeds and/or set up a bunch of your own gear. There's almost always a rehearsal a day or two before the ceremony that you can go to and get things figured out ahead of time.

Whatever you do, monitor the audio at all times with good, closed headphones (MDR7506, HD280, etc).

Oh, and welcome to the board, just noticed it's your first post!
 
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I appreciate the advice and it is helpful, but doing what you do is out of my league. I may not have another wedding to shoot for another year, or maybe ever! So, with that in mind, what can I pick up that will serve both of my stated needs above.

My projects include: This upcoming wedding and extremely short films with friends that would be output to DVD and the web. Let's say I can only invest in two audio sources for now...do I get a shotgun mic? Which one (Model, price, link?) would be good enough for interior but be more suited to and OK for outside shooting?

Do I get a cheap wireless lavalier mic and receiver? Do I get an H2? Do I splurge on an H4N?

Basically, what I can make decent use out of that's not going to break my bank if I only do a few projects a year.

Thanks again! I need more input forum peoples!
 
Well, as you don't have a ton to spend, and seeing how a basic wireless kit will use up your stated budget. You should first see what you're able to get in terms of feeds / spits from the venue sound people and decide where to best spend your money to beef that up, most likely with rental gear.
 
With the situation you're describing, it's simply impossible to justify buying the type of gear required to get even minimally acceptable audio. You need to be contacting rental houses immediately. The stickies will offer tremendous help as to what types of gear you might wish to use. Be sure to rent it far enough in advance to get comfortable using it.

Best of luck.
 
I feel like I'm hitting a brick wall here. There is tons of audio equipment out there that appears to be in my price range. Is everyone in agreement that it is pure junk and not worth a penny? I feel like many of you have gotten so used to higher end audio you can't imagine anything less to get started. So, that's what I'm feeling whether or not it's true or not.

Anyways, how many thousands of dollars do I have to spend to get anything that isn't just pure junk? I am open to buying used, I don't care. But telling me to rent stuff might take care of the wedding, but it doesn't help me buy anything for my projects either. Why spend money renting when I can spend some money on something I can use down the road as well?

I know nothing about audio and just need a few suggestions that would include the following:

Type of Mic
Model
Price
Where / When to use

I have a consumer Sony camera like I stated above and hopefully soon to be arriving a DVX-100. I spent $660. Is there nothing I can pair with the camera, along with its built in mic and the mic on my sony handycam that would give me better audio than the built in? Something that I can use for my projects and add pieces / components to in the future?

This setup would provide me three audio tracks...not good enough?

Ok, so what if I rent a wireless lavalier mic system...that way I can get the lavalier mic on the cheap just for the wedding. Then, what if I buy a shotgun mic? One that does good outside and OK inside?

How does that sound? Pun intended!

Thanks again for your input guys and I know it's a lot of work, but could you be more specific for me? Point me to some links to research? I've dug through a lot of the posts like I said above, but I'm just not having any luck deciphering what would really fit my situation.

Thanks again everyone!

P.S. If I sound frustrated, sorry, I am a little frustrated. I just can't accept the fact that I have no money to do this.
 
Not trying to frustrate you, sorry, Orpheus.

You said you didn't want to spend more than $600 on your sound gear and the brutal truth is that a single entry-level wireless tx/rx with a passable mic is $600. Same for a very basic boom and shotgun setup like this one. Good phones are essential. MDR7506's go for $100.

Your DVX has a pretty decent audio subsystem, so a separate recorder isn't required just yet, though a little H1 or something would be nice for recording board feeds, ambiances, etc.

Weddings and Drama are two pretty different beasts, but in your situation, here's what I might do:

Rent a decent wireless tx/rx pair and a good omni lav. Slap that on your groom, and it should cover the couple and the officiant unless they're doing something odd. Stick the receiver on your DVX. Get a little recorder like an H1 and either get a board feed or use it to record what the congregation is hearing. (And go buy good phones.) That will probably cover you for the wedding.

For the dramatic project, pick up the basic boom kit linked above, or something like it from Guy over at the DVeStore, he'll probably work out a better deal for you. For the dramatic project, just boom everything. The NTG-2 isn't too bad inside as long as the room isn't too reflective and the boom op is competent. A Hyper can be added later, same with Wireless if you really need it. (If you want to stick the gun on the DVX for the wedding, it's not going to hurt, but it's not super likely to give you anything that useable.)

As for the handycam, you can get a Rode VideoMic or something for it, but anything on-cam isn't really going to be that much of an improvement, I wouldn't bother. Just use its audio as a guide for syncing the two cams up in post.

Personallyl, I don't think a shooter/director should buy much beyond a basic boom setup. As you work on more projects, you're going to end up bringing on sound people that will already have their own kit, so yours won't get used. Sound people spend a ridiculous amount of money on our gear, but it lasts a LONG time. I've got mics in my kit from the 60s and 70s that get regular use.
 
Orpheus said:
...
What I would like to have is recommendations on models and pricing, possibly where to buy--my budget is very limited as the camera I bought was only $660 dollars and my audio gear should ideally not cost more than the camera.

...ks.
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Actually, it's not at all uncommon for the sound gear used on a professional shoot to have cost several times what the camera costs. For example, the arguably film industry-favourite hypercardioid boom mic for interior dramatic dialog, the Schoeps CMC641, will set you back something around $2000 US, and that's JUST for the mic - no mixer, recorder, boom, mount, etc. A 10 year-old used one, properly cared for, will still be worth about 90% of that. On the plus side, audio gear doesn't go obsolete like video - a professional grade audio kit purchased today will still be going strong long after your newest whizbang video camera and several of its successors are good for nothing but landfill.
 
Jordan,

Thank you for that last reply--that is more along the lines of the information I need. I will most likely follow your suggestion. I will rent the wireless lavaliere mic system, might pick up an H2 or H4N and then use the remaining channel of audio for my onboard sound. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's still going to be a step above what I have done in the past.

If I want to make sure that the H2 or H4N is backup for what the bride / groom / officiant say, where should I place it? On the podium? Then I would have that and the wireless lavaliere mic as my main audio tracks and my ambient tracks would come from the onboard of the cameras.


Steve,

You make a good point and this is something that I didn't really understand until you spelled it out for me. What you are saying is that the technological advancement of audio eqiupment is slower (than video), or at least that older equipment can still interface with newer equipment without compatibility issues. It might be much more expensive up front, but if it's quality equipment it will last a long time and the quality of the audio will not suffer.

So, with that in mind, my thought is to get some small shotgun mic kit like what Jordan suggested, but I will probably buy this after the wedding as it seems it won't be much use to me when recording a live event.

Thanks again guys for the replies! If anyone else wants to weigh in with their opinion, I would still take suggestions!
 
Orpheus said:
Jordan,

Thank you for that last reply--that is more along the lines of the information I need. I will most likely follow your suggestion. I will rent the wireless lavaliere mic system, might pick up an H2 or H4N and then use the remaining channel of audio for my onboard sound. Sure, it's not perfect, but it's still going to be a step above what I have done in the past.

If I want to make sure that the H2 or H4N is backup for what the bride / groom / officiant say, where should I place it? On the podium? Then I would have that and the wireless lavaliere mic as my main audio tracks and my ambient tracks would come from the onboard of the cameras.
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Unless the cameras aren't moving, you probably don't want to use them for ambient too much, you're going to get very different sound depending on where the camera is positioned/oriented in the room at any given time.

With the recorder, I'd either take a feed off the venue sound board (seriously, talk to the venue people, you seem to be ignoring that suggestion and whatever they're doing might have a major impact on what you need to do.) or place it on a tripod or mic stand somewhere to capture more or less what the congregation is hearing from the PA. A Pair of H1s could give you the flexibility to do both instead of a single h2 or h4n, and I don't think the h4n is really a big step up quality wise from the DVX's sound section.

Planting a recorder somewhere that you can't monitor it is a major risk. There is ZERO guarantee that the audio will be useable when you get to post.
 
Please excuse my apparent ignorance as I feel like I'm trying to orchestrate something that is out of my league. Also, as good as forums are for discussing things, maybe it would be easier to talk this out on the phone? Not sure if that's something you would consider. Let me know.

Anyways, one camera might be totally static / unmoved the whole time--it just depends on if I can wrangle one more consumer level camera before the wedding day. (By wrangle I mean borrow from a friend.) That way I can have a wide shot in the back to cut to if any of the cameras have small sections of unusable footage.

In terms of jacking into the venue soundboard / system, I was mostly trying to avoid that because, as you have noticed, I have no real clue what I'm doing and wanted to avoid any embarrassment. I wouldn't know what to ask / say or recommend in the case that they don't know much either. Then again, they probably could help me out, but I don't want to put it on them. I was preferring to be "self contained." But, if you really think it's my best option, then I shall see about doing that. Seeing the price of the 2 H1's at $100 apiece, that seems doable.

Also, I contacted Trewaudio.com but they haven't gotten back to me yet. I will hopefully be able to rent from them.

Now in terms of monitoring all of this audio, I'm honestly completely lost on what that would entail. Just making sure it doesn't "spike into the red" or something like that? Would it be better to have someone else help me with this? Even if they have no experience? I suppose I don't have any experience with getting good audio either.

So, I don't know. I just need to make this go as smoothly as I can and hope for the best. It's not going to be professional, I know that, but I am trying to be as professional as I can with what I have...as limited as that might be.

So, should we talk?
 
A board feed would probably be taken either from 1/4" or RCA jacks on the board. That can easily be adapted to the 1/8" line in jack on the recorder. Honesty, talking to the venue guys (again, well before the day of the event), explaining that you've never really dealt with audio much before, and seeing what they might be able to do to help is probably going to get you further than you think.

To start off, you need to know what recorder you're going to use, and then get the appropriate cables / adapters to deal with whatever a venue would give you as a feed. Most local music stores have these cables and adapters as well as someone to show you what to do with them.

It would also be worth the time / money to get yourself some training materials. There's a good sound training DVD sold on this very website.

Also, the sooner you can get your gear, the more time you have to play with it and figure it out before the big day comes.
 
Shoot me an e-mail with your phone number if you wouldn't mind discussing a couple things on the phone this weekend or something. If you have a little bit of time to spare.

Also, I am still not sure about monitoring the audio and also, I talked to someone at trewaudio and will be renting a wireless mic for the wedding. I will have it for a day beforehand to check it out and see what I can learn with it.

So, here's my question. When I plug the receiver into my 2nd XLR input on my DVX-100, does the camera have to be rolling for the mic to be on? Can the mic just be on for 20 minutes before I start rolling and then it will start to record sound once I hit record on the camera? Wow, yes, this sounds so basic but please keep in mind I have never used any audio gear at all.

Also, I will have to check with the venue people to see what setup they have, but is there a few common adapters I could purchase relatively cheaply in advance that would likely cover the situation?
 
Orpheus said:
Shoot me an e-mail with your phone number if you wouldn't mind discussing a couple things on the phone this weekend or something. If you have a little bit of time to spare.

Also, I am still not sure about monitoring the audio and also, I talked to someone at trewaudio and will be renting a wireless mic for the wedding. I will have it for a day beforehand to check it out and see what I can learn with it.

So, here's my question. When I plug the receiver into my 2nd XLR input on my DVX-100, does the camera have to be rolling for the mic to be on? Can the mic just be on for 20 minutes before I start rolling and then it will start to record sound once I hit record on the camera? Wow, yes, this sounds so basic but please keep in mind I have never used any audio gear at all.

Also, I will have to check with the venue people to see what setup they have, but is there a few common adapters I could purchase relatively cheaply in advance that would likely cover the situation?
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You keep the wireless receiver and transmitter powered on all the time. When you roll the camera it records the sound. Don't worry too much! Play with it a bit before (as suggested) and you'll get comfortable quickly. You can always come back here to ask more questions.

A hint about wireless setups for long shoots. Know the battery runtime:

I would ask trew if they can provide you with estimated (or average) runtimes for the wireless setup. This will require using the type of batteries they suggest - but batteries are often provided with rentals. You can tell them you're really new to audio and please supply you with a "scrubbed" set for your testing, but a couple of brand new sets for your shooting day.

Then, on the day you're shooting set a timer or stopwatch (on your phone or something) to keep track of the wireless system's runtime so that you don't have to worry about the wireless setup running out of juice. Change out the batteries at the required intervals. Worry less.

As for monitoring audio. Plug some headphones into the headphone jack of your DVX and listen. One thing I try to impress upon audio novices is to learn to trust your ears. It doesn't mean ignore other tools available to you, but learn to trust them. You might not this time around, but with a little practice you can get there; they are your most valuable sound tools so take care of them! ;)
 
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That sounds pretty easy then, thanks for the input. I will have a day or so to mess with it to make sure I have the basics down--how hard can it be? I'll just make sure to put in some fresh batteries.
 
I recorded a musical last year. Two Samson C02 mikes, on stands pointing at the stage, a Zoom H4n on a stool in the orchestra pit, the orchestra was keyboard and minimal drum sets. Simultaneously the H4n recorded all 4 channels. I thought it worked pretty well. I set levels during the dress rehearsal, and turned on "limit 2" on the zoom for any audio spikes. I didn't monitor audio on the day. Maybe something like tis would work for you, put mikes in a relatively unobtrusive position and lay the H4n down somewhere. Use rechargeble batteries. Here's a clip of what I recorded (music comes in near the end):
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=101012023244030&oid=102713030830
 
How about posting your sample someplace other than Facebook, perhaps YouTube. Believe it or not, not everyone has a Facebook account.
 
Sorry about that, but it is something I uploaded to Facebook a year ago. I don't think I can now move it to another site. Hopefully I'll get a chance to upload a sample from the DVD to another site at the weekend
 
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