Endless re - edits - what to do?

R

Reflex Films

Active member
Lately i have had a few clients that become a total nightmare at project delivery time - after approving the final draft they end up changing up to 40% of the edit. Shots are too warm, shots are too cold, this shot is just a little too tight - can you get closer on that one? etc etc Subjective stuff - so you never quite feel secure making any decisions.


Its happening alot. project delivery times are becoming very stressful

these are repeat clients who end up being happy with the work.

I need to manage this- this is becoming a serious waste of my time - any hints?
 
Hey

Hey

Hey,

This is a very common problem, trust me. This has happened on almost every project I've done, and it was immediately apparent after a few music videos that it needed to be addressed. The first band actually said, "Great, we love it! This is amazing!" That was after an 8-hour editing session where we took our director-editor version and transformed it into a new cut for the band, which I agree was better, and we added a lot of little touches, etc. We were also new filmmakers so it stood to reason that more ideas would make it better in this case (though in the future it became a too-many-cooks-in-the-kitchen dilemma). But about 6 days later, I get a call, "Yeah... you know, Jonathan, we've been showing the video to some people, and.. the guys and I think it just doesn't have it. It's lacking some sizzle, we need to re-edit it again." So they come back up for a 6-hour editing session (the band was from like 100 miles away!).

As a quick aside, your level of experience is going to make a difference in how much you tolerate of this kind of thing. When you are new, you're going to take the abuse, because you have little choice. On my first music video, what am I going to do or say? I can't say, "Look, it's my video, I paid for it, and I'm an expert, I'm the filmmaker, you're just the band, so it's going to be my way!" That is going to make sure you never make it far in the industry if you're so stubborn and cocky without reason that you can't even work with someone else to help them meet their needs. But you get to the point where you do have to be able to stick up for yourself, politely, and remind the client, the band, or whoever else that they hired you for a reason, presumably, which is for your expertise, and they need to trust your eye and your taste. If I worked with a band now, I would not tolerate what I have in the past. It's one thing to me if a record label exec said, "This needs changing," because he fronted the money or his company did and as far as I care I'm an easy going director-producer who knows my place is to make that guy happy! But if the band starts questioning something and tells me something needs changing that absolutely doesn't, I won't just blindly make the change. In the past, I basically gave in to the band 90% of the time in some sense, and maybe fought for a tiny bit of compromise. But by this point I'd just be like, look, I've had my videos go to 25 film festivals, I'm a multiple-award-winning music video director, I'm not going to just make changes that make no sense to me. I know what I'm doing. I don't tell you how to make your music, don't tell me how to make my videos. But you have to work hard to get to the point you're even confident in your vision and your ideas, haha.

Anyway, I had it happen with corporate work too. What I finally have decided is a series of documents, it's formal but it's necessary, where you first of all sign a contract to complete the payment, we agree to complete the project, etc. It's the contractual obligation document, very standard. The next document is a sign-off for a rough draft, basically indicating a series of changes that you want made and that you are agreeing the following list is the changes that are to be made for the final edit. When the final edit is delivered, it must include those list of changes. If you have additional changes beyond that, you are going to be billed an hourly rate of probably somewhere around $75/hr for edit bay and editor, and my time if I'm not the editor, which is frankly too cheap but it'll be acceptable for the time being. So upon delivery of that final cut, we have another document, a final cut agreement, that you sign to indicate that it is finished and the final money is now due two weeks after (or sooner) the signed date. That is to protect me so that I don't get a call 10 days later that they're not happy after all and they more changes. When that final cut document is signed, they are doubly obligated to send me money. If it went to court and they not only signed a contractual agreement, but then further signed a document that basically says they're happy with the work, they will have no chance at all. I have to have that level of security doing business. I don't want to get screwed out of time or money.

Now all that being said, in *reality* it's a friendlier process than this might indicate, because if the client comes back to me on that final edit immediately after seeing it and says, "Gosh, you know, we have realized that it really would be good to just go ahead and cut out that pool shot. The pool was under maintenance and it just looks crappy. Is that possible? That's our only change." Then I'm going to do my best to go ahead and make it, no extra charges, and make them happy. I'm not going to be a dick about it. The only reason the paperwork is there is to prevent the extreme case of the runaway client where they keep coming back to you time and time and time again, wasting all of your energy and time, for no extra money.

I run a business. Not a charity. If you want changes that were not discussed and not agreed upon earlier, you are going to need to pay extra money. I may waive that right at my own discretion but then it's out of the goodness of my heart, haha, it's not because I have some sort of eternal obligation to make the client happy no matter how unreasonable they may be.
 
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Do you have a contract? Everytime we work with someone the quote includes 2 sets of minor revisions and they're welcome to come in for the all the editing. If, after 2 sets of revisions, they want more we renegotiate or bill at an hourly rate for editing. Then they can make all the changes they want because they're paying for them.

Before we did this I had about 20 revisions on a :30 spot, and the final spot that aired was version 3, so the rest of the revisions were wasted time. We nipped that in the bud by adding the 2 revisions clause.

If a client wants to make a change that I feel would hurt the integrity of the piece, I discuss it with them too and try to explain why I don't feel it's a change that needs to be made. If they still want to make it--ok. They're paying for it, but it's part of my job to show them why they shouldn't based on my experience.

The next time you do a project for them, be very clear up front that they'll get two sets of minor revisions (or how many sets you want to give away). If they max that out and come back with more changes, ask them whether they want to negotiate a package deal for more revisions or just pay hourly. That makes it clear they're going over budget, and more times than not they stop there.
 
I agree with everything above. Build in a certain amount of re-vision hours. After those revision hours have been eaten up, they are billed $x/hour. This usually keeps everyone at bay. This makes everyone much more efficient. It saves your client's as well as your time. If you don't use all of those re-vision hours, refund the difference back to the client...they always like that!
 
Yup

Yup

Yup, you guys do the same thing, it definitely makes sense!

We also had something before where we would basically have a 4-hour editing session with the client (less if they don't need it) and during that time, they are free to suggest and make any changes they want. Even if it's 3 hours and 59 minutes, any changes they suggest will be noted and made after the 4 hours end. But all revisions had to be *mentioned* during that time period, even if the rendering and all of that would take another 4 hours or whatever. Then there would be a final editing session after.

So there are different ways to go about it, but the point is to give the client a fair chance to make changes and be happy with what they paid for, but also to be fair to yourself and your time.
 
We allow in the contract for two revision cycles in the edit:

1. Review and comment on rough draft to make sure we're all on the same page with the big chunks

2. Review and comment on what we consider to be a 99.9% completed project.

They do get a third look of the final cut but only for some form of glaring mistake like a misspelling.

A few more complex projects do require a third or fourth revision cycle but it is in the contract and budget.

We require a sign-off on each phase / cycle before proceeding. When you ask people to sign-off they suddenly pay more attention.

As well, if you're ending up in a never ending revision or approval process it's likely you're not scripting and requiring approvals all along the way. If you don't start with a well defined and SIGNED Scope of Services and script you'll always end up with what we call "Project Creep" where the project grows.

Without a defined Scope Of Services and a signature it's like hopping in the car for a road trip and no final destination and no maps to get there.

When we see project creep coming on, we become "the defender of the budget" with phrases like "yes, of course we can do that but it will wreck your budget; would you like to make a change to the contract?"

If you're stepping into the realm of Producing you owe it to yourself to not only protect and guard your expenses on a project but also to protect the client's budget. It's part of my presentation on every proposal to tell the client that once they sign-off I'll be the first one to tell them if at any point the budget will be compromised, but we're always happy to extend the project if they extend the budget. Be the hero not the bad guy.

Robert Starling, SOC
 
Butcher said:
Do you have a contract? Everytime we work with someone the quote includes 2 sets of minor revisions and they're welcome to come in for the all the editing. If, after 2 sets of revisions, they want more we renegotiate or bill at an hourly rate for editing. Then they can make all the changes they want because they're paying for them.
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I tried the 3 sets of revisions once, after the 3rd revision there was always another change and it went on for a over a month like that but I was too inexperienced to know any better. I set my price and didn't think they'd want to change the masterpiece of crap that I created.

My current client came in today to basically sign off on a project that was 80% completed because he wanted it quick, and I am doing it for less than 400/day. He gets no revisions because I am doing this for way less than normal, but because I was hired via a company I freelance for, I was stuck under the deal of 1500 for a 50 hour job. It's going to be closer to 65 hours because they gave me a bunch of mixed footage on a computer that isn't as fast as I need it to be...because it's not my computer. I got a cool editing gig, but I also got a bum deal at the end of the day and my wage will work out to just under 20/hour. So it's a mix of bad organizational skills on the producers end and weak equipment, so I give a bit of leeway because of it on the time side of things. ..but I did get something out of this experience, I am going to set my rate at 400-500/day or 40-50/hour and budget for a round of revisions ie. 5-10 hours....after that it is hourly. It has to be.
 
Yes, the revision clause is a good idea. You need to set the expectation.

Just never take any of it personally. Most people out there think that whilst you are the expert they still know better - but you have to remember sometimes they might - because its what suits them, their tastes.

I had a client state to me once after a first cut - at this stage we hate it - after a few minor changes (seriously minor) they said they loved it. Now I sent both cuts to about ten people afterwards and most said the first was much better. So ....
 
This happened to me and when I got tired of the client wanting me to do more and more work for no additional compensation I put my foot down. I got taken to court for it and lost.

Despite evidence to the contrary (receipts for gear rental, labor for taping, a phone call saying how they loved the editing on a particular project, the clients' own contradictory testimoney, videos that were posted on the clients' own YouTube channel, proving that my work had been turned into them) they won back every single penny they paid me. They actually sued me for about 3 times more money they paid me but luckily the judge didn't give them that amount or I probably would have been thrown in jail for doing or saying something about that.

After appealing the case and losing for a second time I decided to produce a documentary about it instead of throw more money at the judicial money pit. I'm also now in the process of getting some more accountability for the judges in my state due to the anger and frustration that came from dealing with the court system. Basically I'm looking into getting a database upgrade implemented to allow a "batting average" of sorts for cases appealed vs. cases overturned. So if a judge has had half his/her appealed cases overturned by a higher court they would have a .500 rating. This information would be made available to the public and would make for better informed voters come election time. As well as the possibility for reprimand.

As of now in my state you also cannot search through cases based on a judge's name and pretty much every election cycle the judges run unopposed. So like Iowa I'd like to see a Yes or No vote system put into place. Finally, audio recordings required in all courtrooms because written transcripts are subject to human error as well as the written word not being able to convey tone or the transcripts not including pauses which can say a lot about whether someone is lying or not. "It's not what you say it's how you say it" rings true.

There's a few other ideas I have to improve judicial transparency in my state, all reasonable stuff to keep the judges' behavior and decision-making on the up and up. These people are making $140K/year so they may as well have someone breathing down their necks.

Anyway if anyone would like to see an almost-completed version of my video just reply to this thread or PM me and I'll send you a link. Please heed the advice in this thread or you will get screwed like I did.
 
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ALL my projects include one round of revisions after that they pay by the hour. If clients can work you for free they will. It is your fault not theirs.
 
phudsontx said:
ALL my projects include one round of revisions after that they pay by the hour. If clients can work you for free they will. It is your fault not theirs.
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Exactly. What if a client attempted to have you shoot (on a shoot day) for 16 hours instead of the normal 10 hours? You'd charge them! Why would post production be any different?

An estimate should always state - "This is what you get for what you're paying."
 
Can anyone post links to pdf downloads of above mentioned contracts? Generic versions are fine.
(re:revisions, sign off for final draft etc)
 
At Starling Productions we outlined and implemented a "Revision Cycle" process in every contract that allowed for X number of revision cycles depending on the type for project and budget.

A Three Revision Cycle contract would include for instance: Rough Cut, Comments, Second Cut, Comments, Final Cut, Master. Once the final cut was completed, it was a "Add-Service / Change-Order" fee required in writing, signed by the client. The only no-charge change after a final cut would be if we had failed to make changes previously commented on or if there was an obvious error on our behalf.

Change orders then become an income opportunity. As the Producer or Editor, you should always protect the original budget but be willing to make additional changes as long as they can find money to do so. My response was / is usually something like this:

" I think that is a great idea but we agreed to keep this project on budget and that's what I have to do unless you think you can find additional funding for it".

It is a more professional way of saying "I have to charge for that" or "You didn't pay for that" etc..

Protect the client's budget first and foremost and that will in-turn protect your time.

Good luck!

Robert
 
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