Emotimo spectrum ST4 group buy.

R

reelmaxwell

Member
This was a posted on nofilmschool.com last week, I just saw it today- they've organized a group buy for the Emotimo ST4 system through Adorama. I believe Reduser did one earlier this year, so if you missed out on that, this might be worth a look. I'm definitely interested. It's for the spectrum + Dana Dolly combo, which is a pretty versatile setup for video and incredible for timelapse.
Article/blog post:
https://nofilmschool.com/2018/07/emotimo-gives-precision-affordable-prices

Direct link to group buy:
https://www.adorama.com/g/eMotimo-ST4-group-buy?utm_source=rflaid913702
 
reelmaxwell said:
This was a posted on nofilmschool.com last week, I just saw it today- they've organized a group buy for the Emotimo ST4 system through Adorama. I believe Reduser did one earlier this year, so if you missed out on that, this might be worth a look. I'm definitely interested. It's for the spectrum + Dana Dolly combo, which is a pretty versatile setup for video and incredible for timelapse.
Article/blog post:
https://nofilmschool.com/2018/07/emotimo-gives-precision-affordable-prices

Direct link to group buy:
https://www.adorama.com/g/eMotimo-ST4-group-buy?utm_source=rflaid913702
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This looks super cool. But as a EVO Rhino ARC owner, I would caution, only go for this if you 100% truly need to fly your RED, Arri level camera. My producing partner has the Dana Dolly, we use it once in a while, it's excellent. But it's big, heavy, speed rail is a PITA to transport for long runs unless you have a van or grip truck. Conversely, when we have cameras like the Fujifilm X-T3, the Panasonic GH5S and the Sony A7 variants, ask yourself if you REALLY need to motion control a 15lb camera? Maybe you do and this is a great option. But IMHO, 85% of users needs could be fulfilled by a much smaller and lighter system. Especially for time lapses, smaller cameras and sliders give just as good of a result at a fraction of the weight, size and cost outlay of this.

This piece of gear looks to built to pro level, I will say my Rhino EVO has been back to Rhino twice in two years. When it's working, it's superb, when it's not, I have had to send it back to once for battery replacement (both the ARC and the EVO units needed new batteries after the first year, I don't use the thing very often and forgot to keep a charge in the batteries) and it just came back from Rhino for a stripped end piece pulley assembly and I baby the unit, it just stripped out after very little usage, all with light cameras, I've never even had my C200 on it). My point being most of the smaller sliders are built to prosumer level. Dana Dollies are bulletproof, and the e-Motimo looks to be well built but who knows at this point how well it is built? Support from the company is VERY important. To their credit, Rhino has EXCELLENT customer support, they've been responsive, polite and timely with repairs. Hopefull e-Motimo will be the same.

The e-Motimo looks sweet but when you factor is stands to support the Dana, speed rail, the e-Motimo unit, you are talking a good sized, heavy load to transport and setup. FWIW, I thought I would use my motion control rig often, that's why I bought it and in reality, I use it perhaps 3-4 times a year, motion control is a specialized thing, kind of an effect or gimmick like many other styles we shoot like gimbal or drone. Cool in small doses but how often are you going to use all of these tools? For me, it's 90% of the time handheld or on tripod. All of these other methods of shooting are perhaps 10-20%.
 
puredrifting said:
e-Motimo looks to be well built but who knows at this point how well it is built? Support from the company is VERY important. To their credit, Rhino has EXCELLENT customer support, they've been responsive, polite and timely with repairs. Hopefull e-Motimo will be the same.
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FWIW I was actually just emailing with the owner the other day (for an issue caused by user error), and he mentioned that it's pretty hard to cause permanent damage to the unit. It definitely feels very solidly built.

The e-Motimo looks sweet but when you factor is stands to support the Dana, speed rail, the e-Motimo unit, you are talking a good sized, heavy load to transport and setup
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Actually if you use portable speed rail and collapsible slider stands the entire setup fits inside the trunk of a standard car and can be brought in/out of location in a single trip if you're comfortable with heavyish things. Sling the rail on your back, slider and DD/ST4 case on each arm and off you go. (It's about ~60 lbs total). My lighting equipment is more of a PITA to transport because it's large/more delicate.

IMO the main draw for this unit is if you can see a clear benefit from the precision and/or control that it offers for more stylized shots, e.g. fashion or product. If you just want a slider for motion for interviews or b-roll, I'd pass.
 
dcoughla said:
FWIW I was actually just emailing with the owner the other day (for an issue caused by user error), and he mentioned that it's pretty hard to cause permanent damage to the unit. It definitely feels very solidly built.



Actually if you use portable speed rail and collapsible slider stands the entire setup fits inside the trunk of a standard car and can be brought in/out of location in a single trip if you're comfortable with heavyish things. Sling the rail on your back, slider and DD/ST4 case on each arm and off you go. (It's about ~60 lbs total). My lighting equipment is more of a PITA to transport because it's large/more delicate.

IMO the main draw for this unit is if you can see a clear benefit from the precision and/or control that it offers for more stylized shots, e.g. fashion or product. If you just want a slider for motion for interviews or b-roll, I'd pass.
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I agree the dana dolly is pretty compact, but there's no way you can take everything in a single trip as a human! What about the stands? I use a two wheel dolly with a box on the back that holds apple boxes, DD case, 2x low boy combos, 2x sets of rails (4' and 6.5'), with plenty of room to spare.

I think for product shots in a controlled environment this would be very useful. It takes us all several takes to slide/pan on a product to nail the shot with perfect timing of the slide and movement of the pan. I think various perfect slides at different speeds would be great to have. Your shooting ratio improves and you also save time in the edit.

As far as more "traditional" scenes with talent walking through a frame, I'd prefer to operate manually where you need to be more reactive, while keeping things light if you have to move the entire set up.

I have not kept up with motion control technology. What other heavier camera options are there? What would you use for simple interview "ping pong" shots?
 
rob norton said:
I have not kept up with motion control technology. What other heavier camera options are there? What would you use for simple interview "ping pong" shots?
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I use Kessler products and I have no complaints. They seem to not be brought up in discussions as much as they used to. At this point, they have a motion control eco system with various options that can cover most situation. Their Dana Dolly competitor is very robust and has motion control available along all of the axis. It uses the same wheels as their flexible track tripod dolly which is nice. I still use my old cineslider with a second shooter and Parallax for ping pong shots. It works just fine on a single tripod for a C300 MK II and heavy lens.
 
rob norton said:
I agree the dana dolly is pretty compact, but there's no way you can take everything in a single trip as a human! What about the stands? I use a two wheel dolly with a box on the back that holds apple boxes, DD case, 2x low boy combos, 2x sets of rails (4' and 6.5'), with plenty of room to spare.
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You wouldn't be the first to call me an alien! The stands just tuck under my arms and then I kind of balance them on top of the cases and press them into my body, if that makes sense. I'm sure I look like an idiot when I'm doing it, so I don't recommend it in front of clients, but it's how I loaded my car the other day :) Absolutely no way I could do it with appleboxes, though, and from what I've read those are essential for heavier rigs as they're prone to wobbling on the stands.

I think for product shots in a controlled environment this would be very useful. It takes us all several takes to slide/pan on a product to nail the shot with perfect timing of the slide and movement of the pan. I think various perfect slides at different speeds would be great to have. Your shooting ratio improves and you also save time in the edit.
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Yep! I just started working with dragonframe and it allows you to get everything truly inch/frame perfect, plus you have the option of using the FIZ motor for zoom / focus without worrying about a puller. And if you have a repeated type of shot or work you can save the move to your computer for future loading which cuts down time even further.

As far as more "traditional" scenes with talent walking through a frame, I'd prefer to operate manually where you need to be more reactive, while keeping things light if you have to move the entire set up.
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The "live" control is actually fun for this. (You basically steer the thing with a Playstation controller, using the joysticks to control pan and tilt and the shoulder buttons for the FIZ.) Using a 10ft rail and a zoom lens you can get some pretty different looking coverage without getting up, too. The only drag is the faster you need the motors to run the louder they are, so fast moves + dialogue is probably not a good combo.

I have not kept up with motion control technology. What other heavier camera options are there?
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I think most of the similarly featured Moco stuff is priced far out of my budget/I mostly use light cameras, so I don't know too much about the competition. One thing I miss about the DD/ST4 integration that I think the Kessler unit cpreston mentioned is vertical slides, which play well to clients that want vertical video deliverables.
 
What are the major differences between a full Kessler set up vs. the ST4? Is it mostly vertical moves? Is Kessler compatible with the dana dolly?

What about second shooter vs. ST4?

I obviously haven't done my homework but am interested in a system that strikes a balance between usability, features I'll actually use (IDK how many vertical slides I'd do), reliability, price, and whether my existing equipment can contribute to a complete system.

SIDE NOTE: I HATE the moving B camera angle for interviews. It's like "we bought the corporate video package we've been tricked into thinking is essential now it's time for our second angle to have some movement just like everyone else's".

However, I really like it when it cuts to a two shot of people talking (classic interview set up), with some subtle movement, or a BTS shot that comes out of some light stands etc.

Check this interview to see what I mean - I'm a huge fan of this set up. Although, for a third angle, at that point you could probably go with a cheaper "C" camera and therefore use a smaller MOCO rig?
 
Every company has their tricks and I've found it hard to know what I am going to end up using until I've dragged it to a couple of shoots and decided if it is worth it. Many of my clients like the moving b camera angle and I've found the Kessler cineslider with parallax and second shooter controlling the slider motion to be pretty easy to make work. Today I did a two camera interview with the slider on a CU profile while also monitoring audio and I was comfortable handling it all myself. The second shooter also has motorized head and zoom and focus controllers, but I've found the mechanical pan control of the parallax to be far easier to use. I can also pull of the motor and use the parallax for manual slider/panning shots for architecture, product, and events. This is all older tech so I am guessing that the ST4 has more fun things to play with. The joystick control sounds like something the client would think was impressive.
 
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rob norton said:
What are the major differences between a full Kessler set up vs. the ST4? Is it mostly vertical moves? Is Kessler compatible with the dana dolly?
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I think the ST4 is the only "official" Dana Dolly motion unit. The Kessler stuff requires using their rails / mounts (which do have some advantages over the DD in terms of modular-ness and size).

I obviously haven't done my homework but am interested in a system that strikes a balance between usability, features I'll actually use (IDK how many vertical slides I'd do), reliability, price, and whether my existing equipment can contribute to a complete system.
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Yeah the vertical slide thing is only really a "want" for clients that like Instagram Story deliverables. (And it's more me wanting it for them than them even knowing they should want it -- atm I substitute with a glidecam and no one but me seems to care.)

On the usability front I think one of the things I love about the ST4 is that there are minimal wires. Powers with a v-mount battery, two small cables connecting the motors to the unit, and then wireless control via either the ps4 or dragonframe controller. The whole setup (sans battery) fits inside a small case. (Pic next to the DD case for reference.) IMG_4022.jpg

It's tough to accurately speak about reliability re: Emotimo because they're so new. All I can really tell on that front is that the company understands that quality CS gets you far in the industry, and they've made it a priority to be responsive. They're also friendly and nice to deal with. I've heard good things about Kessler on that front as well.

Check this interview to see what I mean - I'm a huge fan of this set up. Although, for a third angle, at that point you could probably go with a cheaper "C" camera and therefore use a smaller MOCO rig?
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I have this on my radar as a very compact and interesting device https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LMpnQAr5zk but I'm waiting to see some more reliability info as when I looked into them a while ago it seemed like reviews were mixed.

cpreston said:
This is all older tech so I am guessing that the ST4 has more fun things to play with. The joystick control sounds like something the client would think was impressive.
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I think the St4 has one more axis (4 axis, looks like Kessler offers 3, but maybe you can manually do a 4th? I can't tell), but otherwise they look pretty similar.

And yes, whizzing the camera around via joystick from across the room really does have a "wow" effect and it's easy enough that you can give it to a VIP and let them drive it themselves and they'll love it.
 
Thanks for the info dcoughla & cpreston.

In this interview, you can see the shot is slightly shaky (look at the shot from 01:41). What do you think happened? Lens too long? Or maybe it just got bumped. I know there's plenty of human error in slider and dolly operation, which can be a complete non-issue, and in fact is part of the appeal of camera movement from a steadicam - as long as it doesn't remove you from the scene, manual human operation is part of the charm.

On the other hand, the huge push by motion control manufacturers and what users pay big dollars for is an ability to achieve perfect moves. At some point it begins to defeat the purpose if the shot, although subtle, displays camera shake. The other ST4 videos I've seen are really good so it'd be good to know what's happening.

Accompanying article here: https://emotimo.com/blogs/news/shooting-an-interview-with-ryan-castaneda
 
Ha, I remember seeing that same thing when I was researching and thinking "wtf.'

It could be a couple things:

1) That's what happens when you punch in really hard on a shot? They shot 5k and then punched in to 1080 for that shot so maybe imperceptible "microjitters" at full resolution become more apparent when there's more zoom. I don't know if this actually makes any physical sense. I can try to test it when I get a free moment.

2) Their speedrail is nicked/not smooth in that portion.

3) Something happened with their FIZ motor and it's vibrating the lens a bit. (To me the focus looks off, in addition to the shake, so it could very well be this.)

4) After changing direction with one of the bigger cameras you have to be somewhat wary of shake if it's a quick move as the bars can flex a bit. A center support for a long run helps with this (and I don't think they had one.)

5) Earthquake. It is LA after all :)
 
dcoughla said:
Ha, I remember seeing that same thing when I was researching and thinking "wtf.'

It could be a couple things:

1) That's what happens when you punch in really hard on a shot? They shot 5k and then punched in to 1080 for that shot so maybe imperceptible "microjitters" at full resolution become more apparent when there's more zoom. I don't know if this actually makes any physical sense. I can try to test it when I get a free moment.

2) Their speedrail is nicked/not smooth in that portion.

3) Something happened with their FIZ motor and it's vibrating the lens a bit. (To me the focus looks off, in addition to the shake, so it could very well be this.)

4) After changing direction with one of the bigger cameras you have to be somewhat wary of shake if it's a quick move as the bars can flex a bit. A center support for a long run helps with this (and I don't think they had one.)

5) Earthquake. It is LA after all :)
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Good points.
 
I see camera shake all throughout that video, especially when they have the turnaround for the slider motion. My guess is that the motorized head is not quite stiff enough to support the weight of the head. Alternatively, the weight is not perfectly balanced in the center of the head and the dana dolly. I've found that motorized slider movements can lead to harmonic vibrations in the camera head and it helps to keep the camera perfectly balanced and as low to the slider as possible. It is one of the reasons that I prefer Kessler's Parallax contraption over a motorized head.

I'm surprised they would use that example as a marketing video.
 
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