Dual System
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Re: Duel System
Re: Duel System
Personally I don't know how anybody who cares about production values can afford NOT to go dual system.
It's lot more hassle but the difference in sound quality is night and day. I often read on forums like this one how amazing the DVX's audio is and it cracks me up. Maybe it's good compared to other minDV cameras but compared to what you can get by going dual system, well there is no comparison.
I've just finished directing a feature. All audio was recorded using Sennheiser MKH50 + Sanken CS3e mics (top quality), fed into a Mackie mixer and then out to both the DVX at line level (for reference) before going into a Marantz CDR300 CD recorder. Even though the DVX records audio at a higher frequency than the Marantz, due to the superiority of the latter's internal circuitry (A/D converters etc), the difference is night and day.
The only problem with this set-up is it's a little cumbersome, so I just sold my Marantz and I'm selling the mixer. The new Sound Devices 722 looks like a pretty good all in one solution (hard disk recorder), although it's pricey. I think I'll be going with it though because the mic-pres are so good you don't need an additional mixer. The Fostex FR2 also looks pretty good at half the price (also with the option of timecode). Cheaper still is the Marantz PMD670 (compact flash only) but you'd probably want to run a mixer into this first.
Sonicsense.com has pricing on all these units.
Probably someone's going to counter this and say you don't need to go dual system, the DVX audio is good enough fed through a nice mic and a mixer, but from my experience I could never go back. Audiences tend to accept qualitative differences in the visual sphere, from 70mm to DV, as long as the images are well shot. But with audio, well you've just got to capture good clean sound.
Re: Duel System
Personally I don't know how anybody who cares about production values can afford NOT to go dual system.
It's lot more hassle but the difference in sound quality is night and day. I often read on forums like this one how amazing the DVX's audio is and it cracks me up. Maybe it's good compared to other minDV cameras but compared to what you can get by going dual system, well there is no comparison.
I've just finished directing a feature. All audio was recorded using Sennheiser MKH50 + Sanken CS3e mics (top quality), fed into a Mackie mixer and then out to both the DVX at line level (for reference) before going into a Marantz CDR300 CD recorder. Even though the DVX records audio at a higher frequency than the Marantz, due to the superiority of the latter's internal circuitry (A/D converters etc), the difference is night and day.
The only problem with this set-up is it's a little cumbersome, so I just sold my Marantz and I'm selling the mixer. The new Sound Devices 722 looks like a pretty good all in one solution (hard disk recorder), although it's pricey. I think I'll be going with it though because the mic-pres are so good you don't need an additional mixer. The Fostex FR2 also looks pretty good at half the price (also with the option of timecode). Cheaper still is the Marantz PMD670 (compact flash only) but you'd probably want to run a mixer into this first.
Sonicsense.com has pricing on all these units.
Probably someone's going to counter this and say you don't need to go dual system, the DVX audio is good enough fed through a nice mic and a mixer, but from my experience I could never go back. Audiences tend to accept qualitative differences in the visual sphere, from 70mm to DV, as long as the images are well shot. But with audio, well you've just got to capture good clean sound.
Re: Duel System
Re: Duel System
if you are lloking for cheap solution with very good resolts
the sd-302 ( or any other good mix pre with line out ) amd nomad jukbox 3 (130 us $on e bay directly from the company) 20 g storege
would do better then the camera
i use this setup for almost all sfx and ambient recording , of corse as aditional tracks to my main recorder( hhb)
its very good sounding setup and very cheap
if you want to be more holly then the pop you can add lunatec grace ( pramp and a2d converter ) or mini me befor the j-b
Re: Duel System
if you are lloking for cheap solution with very good resolts
the sd-302 ( or any other good mix pre with line out ) amd nomad jukbox 3 (130 us $on e bay directly from the company) 20 g storege
would do better then the camera
i use this setup for almost all sfx and ambient recording , of corse as aditional tracks to my main recorder( hhb)
its very good sounding setup and very cheap
if you want to be more holly then the pop you can add lunatec grace ( pramp and a2d converter ) or mini me befor the j-b
10s
Veteran
Re: Dual System
Lacuna , I agree that sound is overlooked and it makes a huge difference. It is said that the picture can be bad and the audience will say, "oh that's art"
but if the sound is bad then they detect poor quality. So, yes sound matters a whole lot & a dual system seems the most likely approach for getting there. I'm big on sound being perfect! ...if that would ever happen... 
I checked out the Sound devices unit $2650.00 SRP ouch!... although I remember paying $3000.00 per ADAT for my studio years ago and was happy. They look nice. I want something that integrates the recorder & mixer into one. All this stuff should be in one little box that can be carried as a satchel if need be, and it needs to run off batteries as well as line power. It must have good mic-pres and enough sends for the camera & crew.
Oleg, what is a SD 302? I'm not that familiar with all these tools.
Lacuna , I agree that sound is overlooked and it makes a huge difference. It is said that the picture can be bad and the audience will say, "oh that's art"
but if the sound is bad then they detect poor quality. So, yes sound matters a whole lot & a dual system seems the most likely approach for getting there. I'm big on sound being perfect! ...if that would ever happen... I checked out the Sound devices unit $2650.00 SRP ouch!... although I remember paying $3000.00 per ADAT for my studio years ago and was happy. They look nice. I want something that integrates the recorder & mixer into one. All this stuff should be in one little box that can be carried as a satchel if need be, and it needs to run off batteries as well as line power. It must have good mic-pres and enough sends for the camera & crew.
Oleg, what is a SD 302? I'm not that familiar with all these tools.
Dual System
Check out the sounddevices.com website for the 302 - it's a field mixer with top quaility mic pres - but then, like Oleg said, you'd have to route that into something else because it has no storage/recording capability of it's own.
That's why the SD722 looks so good. Apparently it has the best pres Sound Devices has ever built, and it's built like a brick. The hard drive is replaceable/upgradable so it should last indefinitely. You can pick it up from several online stores for $2375 which is quite a big outlay, but remember it will last you indefinitely (so long as you can live without timecode). The Fostex unit is almost as good for about half the price (although it only has a 5gig HD option), and a lot of people are having good results with that already. The great thing about these units is it's an all in one solution - just plug your mic in and you're away.
I think I'll go with the SD unit because you can be assured they make no compromises on quality when it comes to components.
As Oleg points out there are cheaper ways to go with separate mixer/recorder to obtain great results. I'm going to avoid that next time round for the sake of convenience (I hate thinking about cables and swtiches when I'm trying to shoot).
You're absolutely right, people have a lot less tolerance for fuzzy audio than fuzzy visuals - it's difficult to justify bad audio on artistic grounds. So many indi productions are murdered because the audience is straining to make out what's being said.
Check out the sounddevices.com website for the 302 - it's a field mixer with top quaility mic pres - but then, like Oleg said, you'd have to route that into something else because it has no storage/recording capability of it's own.
That's why the SD722 looks so good. Apparently it has the best pres Sound Devices has ever built, and it's built like a brick. The hard drive is replaceable/upgradable so it should last indefinitely. You can pick it up from several online stores for $2375 which is quite a big outlay, but remember it will last you indefinitely (so long as you can live without timecode). The Fostex unit is almost as good for about half the price (although it only has a 5gig HD option), and a lot of people are having good results with that already. The great thing about these units is it's an all in one solution - just plug your mic in and you're away.
I think I'll go with the SD unit because you can be assured they make no compromises on quality when it comes to components.
As Oleg points out there are cheaper ways to go with separate mixer/recorder to obtain great results. I'm going to avoid that next time round for the sake of convenience (I hate thinking about cables and swtiches when I'm trying to shoot).
You're absolutely right, people have a lot less tolerance for fuzzy audio than fuzzy visuals - it's difficult to justify bad audio on artistic grounds. So many indi productions are murdered because the audience is straining to make out what's being said.
Re: Dual System
the combo 302 +hd recorder(130 creativ nomad , i river .......us 500$) is not perfect solution for every one and like you pointed need cables and yes you need to push the rec batton and check the batteries on both units - but its very cheap and has ists own benefits
you have separate mixer for times you dont need separate recording , you have grate storag to your music while you are on vacation
just for clarificatin , my jb-3 is alwais hooked to my sd-442 in the second return so between the shotes ihave all my rolling stones and the who (not f... compressed in mp-3 and )my cans - tell me is it not worth the 170$ i invested
the combo 302 +hd recorder(130 creativ nomad , i river .......us 500$) is not perfect solution for every one and like you pointed need cables and yes you need to push the rec batton and check the batteries on both units - but its very cheap and has ists own benefits
you have separate mixer for times you dont need separate recording , you have grate storag to your music while you are on vacation
just for clarificatin , my jb-3 is alwais hooked to my sd-442 in the second return so between the shotes ihave all my rolling stones and the who (not f... compressed in mp-3 and )my cans - tell me is it not worth the 170$ i invested
Terry_Lasater
All about the Caption
Re: Dual System
[quote author=oleg link=board=audio;num=1104386440;start=0#7 date=12/31/04 at 06:32:33]ask for this - thats much better
http://www.zaxcom.com/audio/fusion.shtml[/quote]
That looks awesome! Is $5,000 the 'street' price? Is it available, yet?
[quote author=oleg link=board=audio;num=1104386440;start=0#7 date=12/31/04 at 06:32:33]ask for this - thats much better
http://www.zaxcom.com/audio/fusion.shtml[/quote]
That looks awesome! Is $5,000 the 'street' price? Is it available, yet?
10s
Veteran
Re: Dual System
WOW! what a machine. All this with digital wireless...I hope the price doesn't climb too much higher than stated. This is the ticket!
********************************************************************************************
Deva Fusion
ZAXCOM INTRODUCES DEVA FUSION - A MIXER, RECORDER AND STEREO RF TRANSMITTER IN ONE
Pompton Plains, N.J. — April 12, 2004 — Zaxcom, pioneers in the development of 100 percent digital wireless microphones, is introducing the Deva Fusion, a first product of its kind "fusing" a mixer, recorder and a stereo RF transmitter into a single unit providing enhanced capability and performance over separate units connected together.
The Deva Fusion has an advanced 192 KHz digital mixer with a user interface that feels as comfortable as current analog ENG/EFP mixers. Features include four mic/line inputs mixed to six outputs, high pass filter, compressor, delay, 140 dB input dynamic range and a four-channel auto mixer.
On the Deva Fusion audio can be recorded to a hard drive or Deva Flash Drive. Fusion can also output files directly to an external FireWire compatible DVD drive without the use of external computers. Fusion will accept and is file compatible with Deva IV and V hard disks. While using the optional Deva Flash Drive, the Fusion can output MP3 transcriptions on up to two cards at the same time.
The direct compatibility of the hard disk with the Deva IV and Deva V make this the perfect backup recorder for the production sound mixer and provides the ideal ENG/EFP audio studio in a bag.
The Deva Fusion contains a full function time code reader generator with all common frame rates supported. The optional stereo RF transmitter transmits the time code plus two channels of digital audio to the camera utilizing a single Zaxcom Stereo ENG receiver.
The Deva Fusion starts at $4,995.
WOW! what a machine. All this with digital wireless...I hope the price doesn't climb too much higher than stated. This is the ticket!
********************************************************************************************
Deva Fusion
ZAXCOM INTRODUCES DEVA FUSION - A MIXER, RECORDER AND STEREO RF TRANSMITTER IN ONE
Pompton Plains, N.J. — April 12, 2004 — Zaxcom, pioneers in the development of 100 percent digital wireless microphones, is introducing the Deva Fusion, a first product of its kind "fusing" a mixer, recorder and a stereo RF transmitter into a single unit providing enhanced capability and performance over separate units connected together.
The Deva Fusion has an advanced 192 KHz digital mixer with a user interface that feels as comfortable as current analog ENG/EFP mixers. Features include four mic/line inputs mixed to six outputs, high pass filter, compressor, delay, 140 dB input dynamic range and a four-channel auto mixer.
On the Deva Fusion audio can be recorded to a hard drive or Deva Flash Drive. Fusion can also output files directly to an external FireWire compatible DVD drive without the use of external computers. Fusion will accept and is file compatible with Deva IV and V hard disks. While using the optional Deva Flash Drive, the Fusion can output MP3 transcriptions on up to two cards at the same time.
The direct compatibility of the hard disk with the Deva IV and Deva V make this the perfect backup recorder for the production sound mixer and provides the ideal ENG/EFP audio studio in a bag.
The Deva Fusion contains a full function time code reader generator with all common frame rates supported. The optional stereo RF transmitter transmits the time code plus two channels of digital audio to the camera utilizing a single Zaxcom Stereo ENG receiver.
The Deva Fusion starts at $4,995.
Re: Dual System
trhe price without the transmitter and the hd drive , about 250 for the hd
and probably around the 3.6 k for the transmitter /reciever
but even with out the transmitre this one bit the 744 all the way
4 mixeble inputs so you can mix to the camera and run aditional 4 iso tracks + automatic mixer real time miror to ext device or dyrect fierwire port to ext hd or dvd + fast metadata data insert , the only thing that deva loose to 744 is the vaitwhich about twice the 744
trhe price without the transmitter and the hd drive , about 250 for the hd
and probably around the 3.6 k for the transmitter /reciever
but even with out the transmitre this one bit the 744 all the way
4 mixeble inputs so you can mix to the camera and run aditional 4 iso tracks + automatic mixer real time miror to ext device or dyrect fierwire port to ext hd or dvd + fast metadata data insert , the only thing that deva loose to 744 is the vaitwhich about twice the 744
Re: Dual System
Could anyone offer an opinion on this unit? I realise it is not in the same league as some of the units discussed above but this looks like it may be a good compromise. I also like the design as it can be run from batteries, great for location work.
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler
Thanks
Warren
Could anyone offer an opinion on this unit? I realise it is not in the same league as some of the units discussed above but this looks like it may be a good compromise. I also like the design as it can be run from batteries, great for location work.
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler
Thanks
Warren
Re: Dual System
[quote author=readw link=board=audio;num=1104386440;start=0#12 date=12/31/04 at 16:22:22]Could anyone offer an opinion on this unit? I realise it is not in the same league as some of the units discussed above but this looks like it may be a good compromise. I also like the design as it can be run from batteries, great for location work.
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler
Thanks
Warren
[/quote]
You need a computer to use it.... This is just an interface
Not very practical for field use unless you also have a laptop.
[quote author=readw link=board=audio;num=1104386440;start=0#12 date=12/31/04 at 16:22:22]Could anyone offer an opinion on this unit? I realise it is not in the same league as some of the units discussed above but this looks like it may be a good compromise. I also like the design as it can be run from batteries, great for location work.
http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/traveler
Thanks
Warren
[/quote]
You need a computer to use it.... This is just an interface
Not very practical for field use unless you also have a laptop.
MattC
Veteran
Re: Dual System
I don't have this particular unit, but I use a bunch of MOTU equipment and have an 828MKII sitting next to me right now. I think they are the best audio interface for the money and present a real challenge to some of the pricer units. 1) their pre's are as good as any you'll find for under $2k a channel 2) their drivers (at least on Mac but reportedly on pc as well) are fantastic - very low latency and 3) their converters sound very good. They're not comparable to a top of the line Apogee setup but you're not spending tens of thousand on them either.
I am not affiliated with the company in any way, I'm just a VERY satisfied user.
As for the sample rate statement made by lacuna - I agree. I got into this a bit in another thread regarding mixer/recorders, but I'll say it again sample rate alone is not everything - neither is bit depth to be honest. They are important and more is indeed "better", but I would consider those two factors to be the last thing to worry about in my audio chain (for hard disc recording) - but I suppose this is subjective. I would certainly prefer an audio chain where everything else (hardware wise) was very strong and record at a lower sample rate (and we're not talking about a HUGE difference here) than to have mediocre equipment recorded at a higher sample rate.
That said, I would also opt for lesser equipment and sample rate to get someone like Oleg to actually capture the sound for me (this is the most important part of the audio chain - imho). The biggest problem folks have is getting caught up in the gear race, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but you have to remind yourself to move past it. It's like going into a guitar store and listening to two kids argue the merits of a vintage Les Paul. The fondle it, talk about its superior tone due to the unique build quality and what not. They just know that if they had one of THOSE to practice on they'd be great. But then they play it and the still sound like crap - because they're spending all their time ogling a piece of gear instead of spending time in the woodshed getting their chops together. Do some research, put together the best kit you can for your purposes and your budget and practice your ass off. Not only does (perfect) practice make perfect - it's free...
Matt
I don't have this particular unit, but I use a bunch of MOTU equipment and have an 828MKII sitting next to me right now. I think they are the best audio interface for the money and present a real challenge to some of the pricer units. 1) their pre's are as good as any you'll find for under $2k a channel 2) their drivers (at least on Mac but reportedly on pc as well) are fantastic - very low latency and 3) their converters sound very good. They're not comparable to a top of the line Apogee setup but you're not spending tens of thousand on them either.
I am not affiliated with the company in any way, I'm just a VERY satisfied user.
As for the sample rate statement made by lacuna - I agree. I got into this a bit in another thread regarding mixer/recorders, but I'll say it again sample rate alone is not everything - neither is bit depth to be honest. They are important and more is indeed "better", but I would consider those two factors to be the last thing to worry about in my audio chain (for hard disc recording) - but I suppose this is subjective. I would certainly prefer an audio chain where everything else (hardware wise) was very strong and record at a lower sample rate (and we're not talking about a HUGE difference here) than to have mediocre equipment recorded at a higher sample rate.
That said, I would also opt for lesser equipment and sample rate to get someone like Oleg to actually capture the sound for me (this is the most important part of the audio chain - imho). The biggest problem folks have is getting caught up in the gear race, and I'm as guilty of this as anyone, but you have to remind yourself to move past it. It's like going into a guitar store and listening to two kids argue the merits of a vintage Les Paul. The fondle it, talk about its superior tone due to the unique build quality and what not. They just know that if they had one of THOSE to practice on they'd be great. But then they play it and the still sound like crap - because they're spending all their time ogling a piece of gear instead of spending time in the woodshed getting their chops together. Do some research, put together the best kit you can for your purposes and your budget and practice your ass off. Not only does (perfect) practice make perfect - it's free...
Matt
10s
Veteran
Re: Dual System
Matt, I loved your posting, you're absolutely correct!
I say the best gear is "awareness"
How many sound tracks come back with helicopters in the background, airplanes, etc... just plain garbage, handling noise, wind, off axis.... and then folks wonder what went wrong....well, just increase awareness & you'll soon realize what works & what doesn't.
Mic placement (awareness of environment) & gain structure are the keys to good recording.
I'm still not convinced on this 96k & certainly the 192 HD audio. Sampling only needs to double frequency rates so 20k equals 40 k sample rate, add on another few k for buffer and you have , 44.1khz sampling..or CDs. White noise dither glues the samples together. Higher resolutions can help smooth the sound so it is more refined, like going from 12fps to 24 fps. Most people I've tested have difficulty hearing 18k on studio monitors.
Jay Rose has some very nice books with great CDs full of different sample rate examples. This is the gear to buy 1st.
Matt, I loved your posting, you're absolutely correct!
I say the best gear is "awareness"
How many sound tracks come back with helicopters in the background, airplanes, etc... just plain garbage, handling noise, wind, off axis.... and then folks wonder what went wrong....well, just increase awareness & you'll soon realize what works & what doesn't.
Mic placement (awareness of environment) & gain structure are the keys to good recording.
I'm still not convinced on this 96k & certainly the 192 HD audio. Sampling only needs to double frequency rates so 20k equals 40 k sample rate, add on another few k for buffer and you have , 44.1khz sampling..or CDs. White noise dither glues the samples together. Higher resolutions can help smooth the sound so it is more refined, like going from 12fps to 24 fps. Most people I've tested have difficulty hearing 18k on studio monitors.
Jay Rose has some very nice books with great CDs full of different sample rate examples. This is the gear to buy 1st.
MattC
Veteran
Re: Dual System
Yeah, I love Jay Rose's books and highly recommend them.
Regarding high sample rates (96k & 192k) I don't know, I go back and forth about it, but I think I've reached a compromise that I can stay sane with...
I understand the benefits of more headroom, but you should have plenty of it at 48k and certainly more than enough at 96k. I can record at 96k at the house but rarely do - I simply can't hear the difference to justify the massive file size - not to mention the fact that you then have to convert down to 48k anyway for dvd audio... I can hear NO difference between 96k and 192k HD - none, and I experimented with this in a fairly well put together studio. My thoughts are that 192HD might be (probably is) warranted in a top of the line studio where EVERYTHING else is top shelf and being used to the best of its ability by experienced recordists and engineers. Anything less than that and I think all you are doing is creating larger files for no reason.
Just my $0.02
Yeah, I love Jay Rose's books and highly recommend them.
Regarding high sample rates (96k & 192k) I don't know, I go back and forth about it, but I think I've reached a compromise that I can stay sane with...
I understand the benefits of more headroom, but you should have plenty of it at 48k and certainly more than enough at 96k. I can record at 96k at the house but rarely do - I simply can't hear the difference to justify the massive file size - not to mention the fact that you then have to convert down to 48k anyway for dvd audio... I can hear NO difference between 96k and 192k HD - none, and I experimented with this in a fairly well put together studio. My thoughts are that 192HD might be (probably is) warranted in a top of the line studio where EVERYTHING else is top shelf and being used to the best of its ability by experienced recordists and engineers. Anything less than that and I think all you are doing is creating larger files for no reason.
Just my $0.02
Re: Dual System
ill turn that .02 into .04 by adding my own .02 to the bank ..i run my system at 48k. it makes the workflow alot easier since i dont have to convert the files for use in my NLE and dont have to deal with large 192k files.. even though i could do that for a master.. i completely agree that i just cant hear a difference. although between 16, 24 and 32 bit premixing and mixing i CAN hear a difference. so i do all the FX and proccessing at 32 bit and use supersampling/advanced dithering to stuff it into 16bit 48k on output. the file size isnt really affected on any grand scale doing so aside from temp files on output and mixes, and i do believe it makes an audible difference in sonic fidelity and end quality. the mixes do really seem (and are supposed to be) richer, and more full with wider dynamics that would otherwise be lost in the rougher calculations or clipped.
ill turn that .02 into .04 by adding my own .02 to the bank ..i run my system at 48k. it makes the workflow alot easier since i dont have to convert the files for use in my NLE and dont have to deal with large 192k files.. even though i could do that for a master.. i completely agree that i just cant hear a difference. although between 16, 24 and 32 bit premixing and mixing i CAN hear a difference. so i do all the FX and proccessing at 32 bit and use supersampling/advanced dithering to stuff it into 16bit 48k on output. the file size isnt really affected on any grand scale doing so aside from temp files on output and mixes, and i do believe it makes an audible difference in sonic fidelity and end quality. the mixes do really seem (and are supposed to be) richer, and more full with wider dynamics that would otherwise be lost in the rougher calculations or clipped.
10s
Veteran
Re: Dual System
Neil R, I agree with the 48k. It's interesting that most people with excellent hearing (young) love MP3, and I agree, it does sound pretty good. Scientists & Engineers using psychacoustic engineering figured out what people really hear and they use that portion of the audio spectrum. MP3 doesn't have the spec of even 44.1, so what's going on here? I think that humans for the most part don't need all this super spec stuff to enjoy good sounding audio. It's like if someone was to say that they are now shooting 1000 fps and playing back 1000 fps becuase 30 fps & certainly 24 fps isn't real enough. Well, our persistance of vision glues 24 fps together so it appears acceptable with some motion blur, 30 fps looks even more real yet we see at about 60 fps.... but this new 1000 fps is even smoother....i say, so what! & the same goes for audio, 96k, 192k,10,000,000k... 44.1 or 48 k it's good enough. Manufacturers are looking for new things to sell us.
Neil R, I agree with the 48k. It's interesting that most people with excellent hearing (young) love MP3, and I agree, it does sound pretty good. Scientists & Engineers using psychacoustic engineering figured out what people really hear and they use that portion of the audio spectrum. MP3 doesn't have the spec of even 44.1, so what's going on here? I think that humans for the most part don't need all this super spec stuff to enjoy good sounding audio. It's like if someone was to say that they are now shooting 1000 fps and playing back 1000 fps becuase 30 fps & certainly 24 fps isn't real enough. Well, our persistance of vision glues 24 fps together so it appears acceptable with some motion blur, 30 fps looks even more real yet we see at about 60 fps.... but this new 1000 fps is even smoother....i say, so what! & the same goes for audio, 96k, 192k,10,000,000k... 44.1 or 48 k it's good enough. Manufacturers are looking for new things to sell us.