DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

S

Smithhouse

Well-known member
Hey guys,

We're shooting a feature at the end of this month. The DP we're hiring was gracious enough to lower his price tag so we could afford him for a 20 day shoot... Then comes the list: (these are lights only mind you)... just wanted to know if there are some alternatives that would be cheaper...

(2) 650 watt Fresnell
(2) 200 watt fresnell
1K openface mickey
Kino 2' double w/daylight and tungsten bulbs
kino 4' 4bank w/ daylight and tungsten bulbs
(2) 1200 par 2/ electronic ballast

can anyone think of a setup that would be workable without all of these. any help will be greatly appreciated.

Trey
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Uh, I'd be worried if those were the only lights the DP requested.  Unless you're working one very small interior location. I take more fixtures than that on a documentary - and that's always a stretch.

What are your locations like? Do you have exteriors?

e
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Yeah, that's a pretty small package. If that's all he wants, I'd say let him have it. It's hard enough to get a feature done, but doubly hard if you've got one or two hands tied behind your back.

The cheapest way to get that gear is to buy it used on ebay, then sell it when you're done. You'll probably get 90% of your purchase price back upon selling, maybe more. So it's almost like renting lights for free.

There's no substitute for a 1200w PAR HMI, you'll have to bite the bullet on that one, but then again, it'll resell for what you near paid for it (vs. renting, where each 1200w PAR might rent for $150/day).

The Kino's can be replaced with homemade if you want, and if you take the time to make 'em, and they'll still cost a couple hundred in parts and tubes.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Thanks for the speedy response guys,

Here's the total list:

(3 week rental)
Tube dolly w/ track
Kino 2' double
kino 4' 4 bank
2 - 650 fresnell
2 - 300 fresnell
1k openface mickey
5 - 25' stingers
2 - 50' stingers
2 - combo stands
6 - 40" cstands
2 - cardillini clamps
10 - 25lb shotbags
2 - 4x4 silver reflectors
2 - 24x36 solids
2 - 4'x4' floppies
24 x 36 double
2 full apple boxes
2 quarter apple boxes
2 pancakes

(one week rental)
2 - 3 rise 1" leg steel combo
2 x 1200 par 2/ electronic ballast
2 x extra header cable

Total from local rental house in sacramento - 6000

I definetely don't want to cripple the guy, I'm just wanting to know if there are any alternatives... I would like to buy what we can because we have 3 scripts ready for production, and to spend so much money on rentals (only to have to turn around and do it again, seems unwise)...

is there anything we can make in there? - and could anyone tell me where to find it?

we do have several exterior night shots - One at an outside air museum - one at the river - and one at the city incinerator - also a couple of quick shots of people on the street at night.

several int. day shots in a gym, a couple in an office, and some small-mid sized rooms, etc...

Bottom line guys - what can we do(meaning build) ourselves if we have the right people to do it?

Thanks to all.

Trey
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Sounds like a nice light package to me. While I haven't seen the script, I'm sure if he has, he knows what works for him. For me, I am a minimalist. I lit a low budget feature staring Dick Cavett some years ago with five bare 100 watt halogen bulbs and two openfaces and it looked fantastic. Frankly when I did lots of features, we often used very little lighting, even on 20 million dollar plus stuff.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

I know you're not going to want to hear this, but... $6,000 is not bad.

You could maybe find a guy who owns all that stuff in his own truck who'd be willing to work as gaffer for less than $6,000 for three weeks of work. Heck, I've got almost all that gear, and I'd almost do it for six g's for three weeks work! ;D

As for what to buy... well... that depends on what each individual piece is renting for. C-stands go for five bucks a day down here, and on a four day week, that's $20 per week, times three = $60. You could buy 'em new for about $150. So if you're doing three pictures, each at three weeks, yes it'd make more sense to buy the stands and amortize the costs. As for light heads, obviously you could go with the Briteks and buy the 650's, 300's and 1k... that'd set you back about $600 or so... would it be worth it? What's the rental rate on just those heads?

Shotbags are expensive. And they're outrageously expensive to ship. I've got some 15-lb Boa shot bags, I think they cost $50 each (!) So renting shotbags is probably a good idea.

You could hand-make reflectors and the like, but they'll be cheesy. You could buy expendables from Filmtools.com, and hand-make foam-core cookies and flags and things like that. That might save you a little, but not much.

Most of your money is likely going towards those 1200w HMI's. That 1-week rental might be probably $1200 by itself. If you could buy them on ebay, the lights might cost you $1200 each, and when you go to sell them at the end of your third picture, you'd get maybe $1,000 each... so your total "rental cost" would be much, much less.

And hey, rental places will cut deals, too. Are they basing that equipment on a 7-day week? A 4-day week? A little negotiating should get you a 3-day week, and if things are slow where you're at, a 2-day week is not unheard of. Call other rental places too. You might get one who's hungry who wants to compete.

Think about the gear as well -- that's a lot of stuff to haul around. You'll need a small SUV or minivan to haul all that gear.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

>is there anything we can make in there? - and could anyone tell me where to find it?

Lots. This order is expensive for three weeks.

Tube dolly w/ track- easy to make 1 1/2 inch PVC pipe,  3/4 inch birch plywood cut to size with rollerskate wheels (plenty of places on the web teach how to make them) it will cost you $150 to make

2 - 650 fresnell - buy the Altman TV versions

2 - 300 fresnell - buy these - http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=196633&is=REG

It will cost you $1k to buy them and then you have them. You can rent them too!


1k openface mickey - buy it http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=194864&is=REG

5 - 25' stingers- $5 each walmart
2 - 50' stingers - $10 each
2 - combo stands- $130 per
6 - 40" cstands - $100 per

etc, etc   see below

2 - cardillini clamps
10 - 25lb shotbags $14 per bag with zipper you fill yourself
2 - 4x4 silver reflectors
2 - 24x36 solids $50 per
2 - 4'x4' floppies
24 x 36 double

 
Looking at you lighting order and the rental costs, you could purchase all this for less than the amount they want to rent it. Then you have a lighting package you can build from and offer for others to rent when they need it and have it for future projects.


>Bottom line guys - what can we do(meaning build) ourselves if we have >the right people to do it?

Apple boxes are easy to make. So the list below would cost $100 in materials:

2 full apple boxes
2 quarter apple boxes
2 pancakes
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Those are all good points. Walter is clearly more DIY than I am!

I think you've probably been quoted a 4-day week, and with some negotiation work you could probably get that package cut down to $4000.

As for the dolly, if a "skateboard" dolly is appropriate, check out John Hudson's posts, he just had one built for probably $100 in parts, maybe $150. It rides on PVC pipe. Make sure that's the kind your guy can work with, and that he's not expecting a Fisher Pee Wee or anything like that.

>>Kino 2' double kino 4' 4 bank <<
These are a little expensive. A 2' double goes for around $35/day, so on a 3-day week you'd be spending about $300 for it, and about $700 for the 4' 4-bank. A CaseLite 2 goes for around $750 or so to buy, and a CaseLite 4 is around $1050. Neither is a genuine Kino Flo though; and you'd still need to add daylight tubes, which would be another $150. There are articles on the web about building your own flo's, but make sure your DP would be comfortable with using something like that. I believe Jarred even posted some article on homemade fluo's here not too long ago.

<<2 - 650 fresnell 2 - 300 fresnell 1k openface mickey >>
For a complete kit including head, doors, lamps and scrims, it'll cost about $900 in rental. You could buy the Altmans that Walter referenced, although you'll still have to add some for lamps, scrims and doors. Buying the altmans would set you back about $1400 for all four heads with lamps, doors and a scrim. Add the 1k for $300 and you're at $1700. About twice what renting would cost, but at least you'd have it for the other pictures and could rent it out as well.

<<2 - combo stands 6 - 40" cstands 2 - cardillini clamps >>
If you can find this stuff used, you can save some bucks. They don't often show up on ebay, but sometimes production companies sell 'em off. If you can buy them used, you could probably own 'em for about what the rental would be. If you have to buy them new, it'll cost more than renting, but at least you'll have 'em (and could sell them if need be when done).

So, looking at it with opened eyes as Walter has indeed opened 'em, yeah, $6000 would be too much to pay for rental, unless you were getting a guy to go along with it maybe. You could buy most of that gear, or indie equivalents, for around $6000-$7000.

Thanks to Mr. Graff for the reality check!
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

You guys are awesome... Thanks for all the replies. Especially to Barry and Walter for your detailed responses... I'll check out the bay area link you listed, thanks overland.

It looks like I can buy the 650's, 300's and 1k through rostronics. Have a dolly built. rent the hmi and kino flo's and purchase most of the other things from filmtools - while still coming under that 6000 pricetag...

If you guys hear of any good deals around, feel free to let me know. I'll keep you all posted... Thanks

Trey
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Well, before going with Rostronics, recognize that those are open-face lights, not fresnels. Different look. Make sure your DP would be okay with open-face; if he specified fresnels for a reason, you'd want to get those.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

has anyone looked into the c-stands and lights that they sell on the ebay store (amvona.com)? - just curious if anyone has used them and if they would be worth buying. The manufacturer is Dynaphos.

Thanks

Trey
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

has anyone looked into the c-stands and lights that they sell on the ebay store (amvona.com)? - just curious if anyone has used them and if they would be worth buying. The manufacturer is Dynaphos.

I've had no problems with these, but the shipping is a bit outrageous.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Just because no one is openly mentioning this...if the DP has already lowered his rate, I would think it's just sort of expected that he's paired down his requests a bit. If you've already lowered his salary and now you're going to start negotiating parts of the rental package...he might get miffed a bit. Remember, this person is going to put their name on this film, so it's likely that he's requesting exactly the things he thinks he will need to be proud of his work.

Just try and keep him involved if you're going to start cutting things and trading out equipment. DPs have quit for less then that in the past.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

Understood, J_Barnes... believe it or not, what he requested was actually what he called a wishlist... go figure... I'm new to all this, so I'm learning as I go. Thanks for the input.

Trey
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

With the off brand lights, you get what you pay for...better buy several back up fixtures. There's a reason Mole fixtures are more expensive, they last forever.
Can you switch to magnetic ballast HMI's? They are usually cheaper to rent and more available to buy used. They won't work powered by a generator and will flicker with certain frame rates.
 
Re: DP requests these lights for shoot - need help

For a DVX shoot, magnetic ballasts should be appropriate; the should be flicker-free at 24, 30 and 60.
 
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