DP on a friends short film, would like some advice.

P

peter917

Active member
So I normally DP my own work, so I shoot how I want and like. He is requesting that he wants to do no color correction or grading. I am using a c200. He even said as much as he doesnt want to apply a lut in post either which I dont understand that mentality. I told him RAW is out of the question.

My thought is to shoot 8bit with the Wide Dynamic Range color profile baked in and then expose each scene how it would look after doing post adjustments. What I mean by that is exposing for final look in camera instead of exposing to the right for every shot and bringing exposure down in post.

Again I am not sure what the issue with post work is in terms of color but we got into a slight argument where he said he is the kinda filmmaker who wants the look shot in camera with no post coloring and I mentioned every film does post coloring wether its grading or just simple correction.

Normally id expose to the right and them bring down in post and add a lut/make exposure adjustments in post so everything matches. I have been reading about exposing a scene the same in camera and have a question if i shoot my wide at F4 but my close ups at F1.8 I just compensate my lighting amount and or ISO to make the expsoure match the wides?

I am just so use to exposing each shot in a scene as bright without clipping then color correcting exposure in post to match. Please enlighten me as this is not my project and I am not editing.
 
How you expose is how I expose with RAW and that's considered lazy (and some think incorrect), but it's super easy, ha.

If you don't have the luxury of doing that, you'd use your camera's tools to stay consistent with chosen exposure (or a monitor/recorder with certain features or a light meter). And that's an entirely different conversation.

And if it's a complicated project with money spent, you really need to convince him that RAW is worth it and he's making a mistake. Ideally, you'd be able to shoot RAW onto the CFast cards and shoot WDR onto the SD cards, but not sure if that's possible.
 
I guess it’s all in how you want to work and how you’re used to working. I get “exposing to the right” and bringing it down in post to have cleaner shadows, but to me it kind of seems like making a mountain out of a mole hill, because 95% of what I shoot is (still) done in-camera. Not that long ago we didn’t have log and RAW and what could be done in post even in 6-7 figure edit suites was very limited compared to what you can do with free software on a $1k laptop today. You didn’t just get it close, you got it right, because a lot of times it was going to air in a few hours max. I’ve even shot feature pieces that had 24+ hour turn-arounds and there was no time for color correction/tweaking. And I’ve also shot pieces that had plenty of time and we shot log and it didn’t look one bit better than what I could have given them in-camera, because it looked like a run-of-the-mill 709 look.

I guess what I’m saying is, I get it. And I get it on both sides, but doing it in-camera is where I came from, so it’s no big deal to me.
 
SO who is directing the photography? you or him?

If you are an operator, take the camera set as the DOP presents it (settings codec), and choose the Tstop and shutter angle he instructs.

If you are the DOP, then you have to communicate with him the producer about the best post workflow for the project.
 
NorBro said:
How you expose is how I expose with RAW and that's considered lazy (and some think incorrect), but it's super easy, ha.

If you don't have the luxury of doing that, you'd use your camera's tools to stay consistent with chosen exposure (or a monitor/recorder with certain features or a light meter). And that's an entirely different conversation.

And if it's a complicated project with money spent, you really need to convince him that RAW is worth it and he's making a mistake. Ideally, you'd be able to shoot RAW onto the CFast cards and shoot WDR onto the SD cards, but not sure if that's possible.
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Good to know I am not alone, he is not technically inclined like I am in terms of Camera and codecs and luts so I was having a hard time explaining to him that color grading and correcting is usually a necessary process and he knows it is MY process(we are good friends). I am totally open to doing in camera and learning a new method because that is just how I am, though I am trying to learn up a bit on doing it this way so it is not as much of a learning curve on set.

The project is no budget so no worries with money. I do have a light meter i have never used so maybe it is time to do that, but also have wave form on my camera so I will use that as well to keep exposure consistent. I guess we will just do 8 BIT in WDR and expose how he wants it to look in the end.

This is not a paid gig or anything merely good friends working on projects together, he is probably editing or may hire an editor he knows. This project is so thrown together that there are no for sure things in terms of post. He worries if he passes it off and we shoot raw the editor he knows wont know how to work with the footage or be able to handle files ect. So like I stated I think best bet will be to light and expose for the final image on set and let him know he wont have a ton of latitude if he does want to push things after the fact.
 
Sometimes people just do not know any better and if money isn't involved (meaning you're not listening to someone who is paying you to do something how they want it to be done), I would personally still shoot RAW and transcode the footage/provide him ProRes files (I guess unless Windows is involved possibly further complicating the process since he would be choosing the editor).

I know the C200's XF-AVC or MP4 isn't the end-of-the-world, but it would be such a shame to not shoot CRL with that specific camera. Like this isn't some contest who can get the best looking film straight out of the camera.

And you don't necessarily have to ETTR like you have been doing. If you have a monitor that is capable of loading LUTs then you can monitor with a chosen LUT so there are no surprises and he would receive what was shown on set (but you'd still have RAW files for emergency grading).

What if the project comes out really well? Wouldn't you want that RAW for the master or a re-master?

Maybe show him this video and see if he changes his mind (a must watch for any C200 owner): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxnWBFne7IE
 
I totally agree with you...here is the issue. I told him we could shoot RAW and do Proxies and that we could pick a LUT he likes and expose for that on set. He literally said he does not want to use a LUT. I plan to talk to him again but I do not think he is comprehending how RAW works and how some sort of LUT or correction is needed. Granted the pocket 4k can bake in the luts eliminating that extra step, I do not see why it is such a big deal for him.

He wants to get 75% of the look in camera, which is fine with me but you HAVE to shoot with a LUT in mind in order to do that, you can not shoot and expose on set with just the log image, some post work is required no matter what. He seemed to like the WDR concept and shooting 8bit, but he is not realizing that WDR is essentially a basic lut in and of itself. The process of adding a LUT in post is so easy and simple. I appreciate all the help here, Maybe I will show him this forum topic so he understands I am not alone here.
 
I know you're referring to modern-day work, but even so sometimes stuff in the 90s (digitally shot) looked like it was straight out of the camera, especially on television.
 
peter917 said:
Good to know I am not alone, he is not technically inclined like I am in terms of Camera and codecs and luts so I was having a hard time explaining to him that color grading and correcting is usually a necessary process and he knows it is MY process(we are good friends). I am totally open to doing in camera and learning a new method because that is just how I am, though I am trying to learn up a bit on doing it this way so it is not as much of a learning curve on set.

The project is no budget so no worries with money. I do have a light meter i have never used so maybe it is time to do that, but also have wave form on my camera so I will use that as well to keep exposure consistent. I guess we will just do 8 BIT in WDR and expose how he wants it to look in the end.

This is not a paid gig or anything merely good friends working on projects together, he is probably editing or may hire an editor he knows. This project is so thrown together that there are no for sure things in terms of post. He worries if he passes it off and we shoot raw the editor he knows wont know how to work with the footage or be able to handle files ect. So like I stated I think best bet will be to light and expose for the final image on set and let him know he wont have a ton of latitude if he does want to push things after the fact.
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Honestly, there is no learning curve. If you're baking in a look, it literally is as easy as What You See Is What You Get. If it looks good in the monitor(presuming the monitor is correct), then it looks good. It's how I shot with Betacam's, F900's and VariCam's and it's still how I mostly shoot(prob 90%+) with C300's, F55's and Amira's. Pretty much every modern camera can produce great results in-camera.
 
It also depends on what that final look is supposed to be...if its just a plain ol’ vanilla look with normal colors and contrast and skin tones, everything looking like it does in real life/to the naked eye, maybe not a big deal. HOWEVER, if he wants orange and teal, or high contrast with a color cast to everything, or post apocalyptic desaturated grey green, etc., now youre probably talking about messing with menu settings/profiles, very specific lighting, art direction, wardrobe, production design to get those arty looks purely in cam. Furthermore the same menu settings may look different on different shot compositions under different lighting and different settings causing the shots to potentially not match without a lot of on set profile tweaking. Having made/worked in a fair number of zero budget projects I don’t know feasible all that will be for you.
 
Friends short film? What kind of friend is this person if he/she doesn't want any input from you if you'll be DP/DoP? Assuming this is small budget, doing as-a-favor sort of thing... it strikes me as odd it would be his way or no way...

I know you can get decent WYSIWYG looks in almost all modern cameras.... but even small tweaks in post can really help certain scenes look better - unless everything will be lit perfectly on set.
 
Wait... what if you have a night interior where it is supposed to be a very dimly lit room? Do you set the lights to look like a dark room and crank down the aperture to get it “in camera?” Have you ever seen a “dark” scene on set?” It’s pretty damn bright. Light well, expose well, then drag it down in post. Otherwise you will wind up with unacceptable noise.

Tell your friend it’s a camera. You have to create an exposure. Test - show him the difference.
 
Just back yourself and shoot mp4. As a DP, I'd have way more fun trying to nail the look during production, especially when there aren't severe consequences if things go wrong.

Use the project as a reference point moving forward - "see the blown lamp in the background? We'd be holding a lot more of that detail shooting raw". If the project turns out amazing, I'd be celebrating rather than lamenting I chose mp4 over raw.

Unless you have a solid pod with multiple SSDs, you're also eliminating the data transfer task on set, letting you focus more on shooting.
 
If you have enough cards to deal with an entire day, can't you just dual record and keep the raw files in reserve if needed? If the camera can dual record with raw and compressed, I'd probably find a way to get both so that he can be happy, and maybe you can save the day when a shot doesn't work in post.

How long is the intended finished product supposed to run?
 
That's what I recommended above but that would only work if you could choose WDR for the SD cards while shooting S-Log2/3 (don't remember which one it is) via RAW on the CFast. Not sure you can separate their gammas.
 
Wow tons of replies to this, I really appreciate all of the input. The finished product is aimed at about 5-6 minutes.

I spoke with him today, I essentially told him he has two options. We shoot MP4 WDR or some other LUT via a secondary monitor and we expose to the final look on set OR we expose brighter without clipping and then he brings the exposure and matches shots in post THEN drops the LUT on. I made it very clear that if we go the route of getting the final look in camera and with it being moody lighting he most likely wont have room in post to adjust exposure without noise if he wants to brighten any of the shots.

The look he mentioned to me he would like is warm backgrounds and then have actors/skin be more natural instead of favoring cool/warm He brought up some scenes from inception as a example. So with that in mind I plan to just WB to the more cooler foreground light and then have warm background light using lamps. He was taught in film school one way and he kind of sticks to that and I tried to say politely today that you are not well versed in how things actually work technically on the camera side. This is not film stock, this is not a 1 million dollar production, time better making sure we can tell the story fully in a 8 hour shoot then to worry about every exposure and color being perfect when it is all stuff that can be done at leisure in post.

Not that fix it in post is the answer but getting the look dialed in 50% in camera and then perfecting in post makes much more sense on a no budget project with 8 hours to shoot 40-50 shots. At the end of the day it is not my project but as the DP and it being my equipment I know the best way to get the results he is looking for. I am going to do it the way he wants and we will see the results. It will be a good learning lesson for me regardless and if something goes wrong I wont feel as responsible considering he knew my thoughts prior to the shoot.

I will be sure to post some screen grabs once the product is finished!
 
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Greg_E said:
If you have enough cards to deal with an entire day, can't you just dual record and keep the raw files in reserve if needed? If the camera can dual record with raw and compressed, I'd probably find a way to get both so that he can be happy, and maybe you can save the day when a shot doesn't work in post.

How long is the intended finished product supposed to run?
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NorBro said:
That's what I recommended above but that would only work if you could choose WDR for the SD cards while shooting S-Log2/3 (don't remember which one it is) via RAW on the CFast. Not sure you can separate their gammas.
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Every time I've shot RAW on my F55, I've recorded an XAVC slog back-up in-camera.
 
Yeah, a back-up of the same gamma is pretty standard for any dual-recording camera.

In the example you quoted one would be C-Log2/3 and one would be 'WDR' Wide Dynamic Range, which I don't know is possible.
 
How about you tell him you're more than happy to do it his way - and then hand him the list of lights & modifiers you'll need in order to get the set's he's chosen lit & balanced within 7-8 stops so that everything looks good when recording straight to a REC709 ready LUT.

Once he balks at the rental costs, you can suggest doing it your way instead! :grin:

Otherwise, just shoot it his way as best as you can (like Rob said, treat it as a challenge), and if anything goes wrong just wash your hands of the mistakes and tell him you warned him!
 
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