Downfall (Untergang, Der)

J.R. Hudson

J.R. Hudson

Spirit Animal
I rented this for this weekend (along with Poltergeist for my son and I and the Psysco remake for me).

http://www.downfallthefilm.com/

I love War Films and this is getting insane props. I like the idea of this being told by German filmmakers as well; another perspective and one we don't see too often. It is a controversial film from what I hear as it portrays Hitler and the Nazi party as, well, humans. (I already know that humans suck)

Can't wait to watch this. Anyone else seen or plan on it?

I have this picture in a book on WW2; interesting to see it as a recreated still.

der%20untergang.jpg




 
I didn't know this was out yet.

Heard nothing but good things about it, so I'll give it a shot.

So, the Psycho remake, huh?

I'm sure you accidentally picked it up instead of the original, rrrrriiiiiiiiiiggggghhhhhttttt? :cheesy:
 
Haha

IN fact; it was all this talk of Gus Van Zant and re-makes.

I'd seen the remake once and the original like who knows how many times.
 
It wasn't as bad as people make it out to be.

William H. Macy did an awesome job as usual.

Vince Vaughn did a terriffic job as Bates. Filling Anthony Perkin's shoes was no easy task. I think he held his own, though.

Van Zant is awesome.

Can't wait to see that Kurt Cobain movie coming out.
 
I reeeeeeeally want to see Downfall. Sounds like good open-minded filmmaking.

I think that people just dismiss Hitler as crazy and evil, but he was far from it. I'm certainly not supporting his actions in WW2, but I think some of his political ideas were genius. NOT the ones that envolved killing people BTW. Getting too political now.

Please let us know what it's like John!
 
I saw downfall in the theater (whenever that was). It really stuck with me. I didn't know it was out. Ill pick it up this weekend.
 
Hitler was basiclly one of those kids who got pushed around one too many times and had to unleash is anger onto the world.... Kinda like Bill Gates!
 
Sounds like an excellent movie. I'll have to go get my hands on a copy.

I think this sort of movie could be awesome. After all it's far more important to understand WHY Hitler did what he did rather than that he was a demented person. That's the only thing which will prevent such horrors in the future.

After all those german soldiers had families and lives just like anyone else. Reading some of the material about WWI (yes I know, not WWII but same basic idea right?) is interesting because it's clear that both sides hated being there and that they didn't feel any real animosity against one another - heck they came out and sang together on Christmas and then went back to shooting each other the next day.
 
Saw it in theaters when it came out. Great movie and the German perspective was interesting and it did take the easy way out by demonizing Hitler. I agree he was a Genius just misdirected (disclaimer- I don't agree with the killing part as well). But this portrayal was engaging.
 
John_Hudson said:
I'm watching it tonight; but referring to him as a genius is bizarre.
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I don't know, look what he did for German between '33 and '39. IMO definitely a genius, but a warped genius. He could have been remembered as one of the greatest politicians ever if he hadn't committed the crimes he is best remembered for.

I am just on my laptop watching a documentary on Hiroshima. That could be seen as pretty evil too. All humans are capable of terrible things when they believe they are justified.
 
He did a lot of horrible things politically. IF he didn't he wouldn't have been in power. He wasn't a genius he was just willing to go the extra ruthless step. Also, brainwashing a population into doing horrible things without regret does not equate genius or great leadership abilities. He used his people's fears and appealed to their nationalism -- I'm not saying he wasn't smart, he was a grade-A manipulator -- but to call him a genius is going a bit far.
 
I agree Jargon, he was smart and ruthless in how he took power. The genius part is merely a matter of opinion. Remember that he wasn't a standard ruthless dictator. He held power by making German prosper amazingly well.

If you distill his good ideas from his terrible crimes, he did have some very strong theories about running a country IMO.

I think Hitler is often held as a beacon of evil, when in fact dictators such as Stalin were worse. It is estimated that Stalin had around 36 million people killed compared to the 6 million during Hitler's genocide. Of course that is no defense what-so-ever for Hitler. However, Hitler did what he did for what he believed was the good of his country, Stalin did it for selfish greed and power.

We should try and learn from what Hitler got right such as promotion of health and fitness in youth.

Anyway..back to the film... I haven't seen it yet, but I hope it tries to understand and portray Hitler as a man, with the obvious flaws, not a evil monster.

If we don't try to understand the nature of crimes such as the Nazi Holocaust, we will never realise how capable we are of committing such things ourselves. I haven't seen a film that achieves that successfully yet. I would like to see a Holocaust film made by a FORMER Nazi. That could be interesting.

I hope that doesn't make me sound like a Nazi, I'm just trying to be open minded about it. I completely respect and understand your opinion on the subject Jargon.
 
It seems alot of people like to equate Genius with 'having great influence over others.' I don't.

I don't consider someone who was a political leader and improved the economy of a country a genius. If you do, your standards must be low. (That is not a slur on you mmm) Do you know what Hitler and the Nazi party did between 33' and 39'? Here are a few of the accomplishment's:

The Reichstag Fire
First Concentration Camp opens
Nazi Boycott of Jewish shops
Nazis burn books - This is the mark of a genius :lipsrseal ?
Night of Long Knives
Nazis murdered Austrian Chancellor Dollfuss
German Jews stripped of rights by Nuremberg Race Laws
German Gestapo is placed above the Law
The Night of Broken Glass
Reichstag speech - Declaring War on the US (often mentioned as one of his biggest blunders)
Euthanasia on sick and disabled in Germany (German people not just Jews)

and of course

The Nazis invade Poland

Signs of genius in action, yes?

I personally can't equate a Genius with Genocide this 'Fuehrer of the criminal Third Reich.' I cannot equate a genius with a racist and a criminal and a murderer and a liar. I cannot equate a genius with someone who blamed his own people for the defeat and fall of his precious Reich and I cannot equate genius with someone who commits suicide.

None of those are the traits of a genius; but simply a madman and a fool.

Hitler said himself:

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."

"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

"What luck for the rulers that men do not think."


I think Hitler had a great talent for politics and that's it. Genius must carry common sense and Hitler had zero of that.
 
Fair enough John.

I suppose calling him a genius may seem to ignore his wrong doings. Maybe I should just stick with "some of his political ideas were actually very clever."

I was just trying to say that he was a real man; a man with some great ideas and some sick ideas. I think that a film that attempts to portray Hitler for who is really was is a good thing: let's see the good and the bad. An unrealistic evil monster doesn't really interest me.

BTW... what was Downfall actually like John?
 
I think Hitler was a ****ed as any physchopath personallly. A real man? In flesh and blood but in spirit and sake of humanity? A total monster.

Einstien was a genius
Mozart was a genius
DaVinci was a genius
Hitler was mad.

But his rise and the Nazification of Germany is as intriguing as any cultures history. To understand Hitler; one must go back to Germany's defeat in WW1.

I watched DOWNFALL. I enjoyed it. I found it fascinating not only to watch a film about the Germans and from the German perspective but more to the point from the the memoirs of Traudl Junge (Hitler's secretary) and historian Joachim Fest's book The Downfall: Inside Hitler's Bunker, The Last Days of the Third Reich.

I have always been a huge fan of WW2. I think this era is indeed the last of America's (and the world's) innonence and we have only spiraled downward since (and it's getting worse). Our grandparents must have just been sad seeing today's world (mine have since passed away).

As much as I liked this film I think the accolades some critics are throwing down on it are a bit much. The performances are wonderful as much as I can tell; Ich spreche nicht Deutsches

The costumes and set design is first rate. There is not a moment where I don't believe we are in the bunker or in a bombed Berlin. NAzi soldiers, doctors, SS, Civilians; it's like a time machine.

The battle sequences are few and far in this film. Even though it is a story about the Last Days in a bunker; I still wan't to see more action. It is a WW2 film. When they do show the few 'action' sequences (usually a bombing raid or the Russians advancing on Berlin) it's kind of weak. After watching SPR and Band of Brothers anything is. The explosions are either CGI or enhanced with CGI and it's pretty bad looking and distracting.

But the action scenes are so far between it's neglible. For me; it didn't start to get interesting until Hitler and Eva Braun - (Frau Hitler) committed suicide...

Up until this point; everyone seems to be kind of one dimensional and even-keeled about the Russian Army coming right down on top of them. They portray Hitler as either 'a depressed mellow aging leader' or 'a ****ing lunatic' that goes on tirades about loyalty and deceit.

You never get the sense he is 'just a man' or normal just an aging dude or a nutcase.

Traudl Junge is played by Alexandra Maria Lara and is also played as one dimensional; just think homely and timid 100% of the time. That's it. We're also lead to believe we should feel sorry for her. In fact; I found myself not feeling sorry for any of them and not due to my views or personal feelings just simply that you don't feel sorry for them.

Traudls character is played as a 'Gee; the War is almost over and the Reich is crumbling... What will I do now? Should I go home and tell my people I was young and impressionable?"

They never touch on the Jewish subject matter, the Americans are mentioned maybe twice but never shown; the Russians are shown only in shots of troops marching or firing some random shots or in a negotiation of surrender scene (there wasn't really any negotiation)

In most instances they show the madness of the Nazi's; officers blowing their brains out, SS Police executing civilians for helping the Ruskies, drunken behaivour and some debauchery by officers knowing the end is coming, the denial of officers and their regimental squads as they want to fight to the last man and bullet (suicide really) and even the killing of children by poison in the bunker by Magda Goebbels "The First Lady of the Third Reich. This scene alone is horryfying and makes you realize the fanaticism of the Nazi ideals when she kills all 6 of her children believing they will be reincarnated (she had muslim beliefs; go figure that one out)

Eva Braun is played as a kind of 'in denial; let's drink and be merry' kind of role. She isn't really a factor at all in the film other than to smile stupidly and drink alot.

Overall; I liked it. I'm glad I watched it. But it's no where good as SPR, Band of Brothers, Das Boot, Enemy at the Gates, Schindler's List, Thin Red Line or The Big Red One, The Pianist....

My point is; I think the accolades and acclaim is coming from the fact that GERMANS not only made this but it's almost a first of kind film (sans 1956 DER LETSTE AKT) I think. It felt better suited for a BIG BUDGET TNT film to me or HBO (but that would be insulting Band of Brothers). This film felt more Hotel Rwanda in scale.

HUDSON STARS 2.5 / 5
 
Interesting discussing about the nature of "genious." FWIW, It's interesting to note that we won the war due to Hitlers stupidity. Either not allowing his armored panzer divisions to move without his express command (ie D-Day), not persuing technology that would have altered the course of the war until it was far too late (Jet tech, Nuclear Weaponry), opening up a second front against the Russians....

He had political talent but that's about it IMO.
 
John_Hudson said:
I have always been a huge fan of WW2. I think this era is indeed the last of America's (and the world's) innonence and we have only spiraled downward since (and it's getting worse). Our grandparents must have just been sad seeing today's world (mine have since passed away).
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I too think that every day.

I always try and make time to put on my WW2 para jacket and walk my dog along the river. There is nothing to show what decade you are in that way...lol... they thought hitler was mad! I actually live on a line of WW2 defense bunkers outside of London. I actually have one in my garden. Sadly the ones in the surrounding fields tend to be full of chavs, coke bottles, cheap porn and needles... I often think I was born to the wrong era.
 
John_Hudson said:
It seems alot of people like to equate Genius with 'having great influence over others.' I don't.
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http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=g8sc5t2johf9l?tname=genius&method=6&sbid=lc03a

Not to add fuel to the fire but pay close attention to the #5 definition. While I am not defending the actions of Hitler, people can be geniuses (clever, smart, influential...etc) and still be mad. But alas this thread shouldn't be about Hitler but about the movie ^^

Peace :thumbsup:
 
Shaw said:
Interesting discussing about the nature of "genious." FWIW, It's interesting to note that we won the war due to Hitlers stupidity. Either not allowing his armored panzer divisions to move without his express command (ie D-Day), not persuing technology that would have altered the course of the war until it was far too late (Jet tech, Nuclear Weaponry), opening up a second front against the Russians....

He had political talent but that's about it IMO.
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Hitler got cocky at the end of the war really, but he certainly pursued a lot of good technology.

He was right up there with jet fighters. I believe the Me262 was the first operational jet fighter (although Hitler did interfere and bugger up the design apparently).

The Nazis were desperately pursuing atomic weapons, but never got there. However the V2 were astounding, and the V3 (Supersonic canon) would have destroyed the whole of London. Luckily they didn't get it to work before we destroyed it - The RAF got a lucky hit with a Tallboy 12000lb bomb that cracked an underground resevoir and flooded the underground bunker.

Opening a front with Russia proved his foolish over-confidence, but it is understandable considering how he walked over most of Europe (apart from Britain :) )

He did make mistakes, but also made some very clever decisions. If all his talents had been put towards good I definitely think he would be considered a great leader and a genius. I understand the point that calling him a genius does seem to glorify his evils.

Amazon says that Downfall is released in the UK on the 19th September.

Their top rated "Customers who bought this item also bought..." is Watership Down!! ...lol :grin:
 
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