double system workflow with HVX200

C

c3kings

Well-known member
Dear All,
For my new project, I need to use double system, and I will get a SD 702T to record the sound, but HVX200 doesn't sync the time code with SD, so I need a Denecke or Ambient TC slate or sync generator. Am I correct, so far? But actually, I don't know the next step. I don't know about the workflow. Can anyone give me more information? Also, please do share your experience of using Denecke or Ambient? I am not sure which syncing device I should use.
Thanks in advance.
King
 
just run time of the day as close as possible , sklate the first take then every couple of hourse or every time you change card /battery
very simple .
if iam not mistake you cant import tc from audio channels on p-2 recording - but check it out
digi slate - no need at all
also keep the camera sound open so if something wrong with slates you can sync it manually by ear
 
Oleg 2 said:
just run time of the day as close as possible , sklate the first take then every couple of hourse or every time you change card /battery
very simple .
if iam not mistake you cant import tc from audio channels on p-2 recording - but check it out
digi slate - no need at all
also keep the camera sound open so if something wrong with slates you can sync it manually by ear
Click to expand...
Hi, Oleg 2,
Are you saying that I just let both HVX200 and, say, SD 702T recorder run the tc as free run, and I slate, or even clap, in the beginning of each important take, and later when I am doing editing, I find out the slated frames and caculate the difference time between the tc of the camera and recorder? Therefore, in this case, I don't need a digi slate.
Also, yes, I heard about that one of the audio tracks of HVX200 can record the tc. But how? Do I need any device? If this is so, can I make the HVX200 record the same tc as the recorder?
By the way, thinking more about the workflow, I become unclear about the difference between SD 702 and 702T. Yes, sure, I know 702T has tc, but 702 somehow has time code, too, right? What is the different between 702's tc and 702T's tc? And both of them can run free run tc; am I correct?
I hope you understand what I am stating.
Thanks a lot.
King
 
702 doesnt stamp tc
it may be the 702 stamps time of aday that you can convert later , but dont think that it would save you time later .
about free run , you slate every couple of hours or every card /battery change ( 16 minutes :-)) and yes calculate the differnce which stay the same beween the slates - so it is almost automatic prosses .
i dont sure you can export tc from audio channel on avid from p-2 material - may be it has changed - but better check out .
if it can import now , you dont need any device and just record the tc on 1 of the audio channels - hard wire or wierless - than change the tc clips for the actul mastertc from the soun devices
digi slate - waist of money if you can properly clap every time , nessery if you do wont work with open slate ( point and shoot)
 
I don't think you have to mess with time code at all. Run one output to your camera and one to the recorder. As Oleg said, slate each shot at start and stop. Then in your editing software line up the waveforms from the scratch track on the camera with the tracks from your SD 702. Just saved yourself the money for a timecode slate!

Would that work for you?
 
that not what i said , i said you need tc not to slate every shot , that is the benefit of the tc , to run to the camera you dont need at all as the camera mic does it . i sudgested run tc to audio channel and convert it later .
tc is must to save time , esspesially on doco .
 
Oleg 2 said:
702 doesnt stamp tc
it may be the 702 stamps time of aday that you can convert later , but dont think that it would save you time later .
about free run , you slate every couple of hours or every card /battery change ( 16 minutes :-)) and yes calculate the differnce which stay the same beween the slates - so it is almost automatic prosses .
i dont sure you can export tc from audio channel on avid from p-2 material - may be it has changed - but better check out .
if it can import now , you dont need any device and just record the tc on 1 of the audio channels - hard wire or wierless - than change the tc clips for the actul mastertc from the soun devices
digi slate - waist of money if you can properly clap every time , nessery if you do wont work with open slate ( point and shoot)
Click to expand...

Thanks, Oleg 2, I have a better idea now, but I would like to clarify how to import the tc to one of the audio channels. You are saying that I don't need any devices, so do you mean that I can import the tc to HVX200 directly from SD 702T?
Also, yes, you are right. I am shooting documentary, so it will be quite pain to syncing the material by lining up the waveform in the editing software. By the way, I did do that before, and it was a nightmare because the sound man was so irresponisble, and he just recorded everything on his old Tascam DAT and never cared about the possiblity to sync up the pictures.
Thank you very much.
King
 
been there done that, the most simple way is to let the on camera mic to also capture the sound then use that as a guide track for your 702 audio, then line them up on the timeline. simple, elegant
 
Thanks, killfilm. You are right by using the guide tracks from the camera and sync up with audio tracks of 702. It is the most straight forward and simple way. In fact, that is the way I was using before with my old Tascam DAT machine, and, let me tell you, it is a real pain, particularly for documentary films.

That's why I would like to spend some money to have a tc recorder, like 702t, so that I can cut my editing time. However, I am not sure how to fully utilize the advantages of tc, so I am posting this thread to see anyone using 702t and hvx200 to share their experience.

Thanks.

King
 
the TC function is only useful if your camera accepts TC in out, which unfortunately the HVX does not offer. So using the guide track or a slate, clap is useful.
 
Thanks, filmgeek 33.
But I heard about that we can use a tc generator to "stamp" a tc on one of the HVX200 audio tracks, and then we can sync up the audio tracks from 702t and hvx200 relatively easier by using the tc. Have you heard about this?
Thank you very much.
King
 
filmgeek33 said:
the TC function is only useful if your camera accepts TC in out, which unfortunately the HVX does not offer. So using the guide track or a slate, clap is useful.
Click to expand...
that is quit not as any 2 recorders which not drift heavily and run free run could be syncronize in a minute on nle
 
I'll get a 702T and try. I feel in a long run, I will need a TC recorder anyway. Thank you for all of you guys' advices.
 
1. Record the TC generated by your audio recorder onto one of the HVX's line-in audio tracks as you shoot/record audio.

2. For playback, feed the TC track from the HVX back to the recorder's TC input. The audio will lock right up.

Getting all of this into an NLE however, is another question, since the camera's built-in TC and the audio's TC won't match. I've devised a workflow solution for this that I'll be using, but it's very complex, involving 3 computers and a pretty large amount of DAW gear I already happen to own.

But basically, the setup described above will allow the separately recorded audio to be locked to the camera on playback. Where you take it from there is the rub...
 
avid doesnt read tc from p-2 audio channel , trying to get unswers on fcp which wasnt able to read any tc rom anything till the last versin
 
Soundtrack Pro will at least transmit Midi Time Code (you need a midi interface), which is part of my aforementioned complex post-workflow, which goes like this:

-MTC from STP on a G5 will be chased by a G4 (with another midi inteface) running Pro Tools.

-HVX clips with the on-set audio TC (exported from FCP into STP) on the G5 will be chase-locked by a third system (with the original set audio) running Digital Performer and a MOTU 828 on an iBook.

-That audio gets re-recorded (digitally, via 8 channel optical) into Pro Tools on the G4 as it chases STP's midi TC, producing new BWAVS with TC stamps that match the original FCP camera takes.

-Then that audio gets imported back into FCP and "merged" with the corresponding video clips using the time stamps.

...Told ya it was complicated... : )

But it works, and while it is complicated, once it's set up, a large amount of material can be handled, ultimately saving time and hassle on big projects.
 
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yep it looks complicated .......d
free run on both devices , clap every card change looks to me much simple way to do it . at least it worked for me .
by the way anyone worked with silicon imaging si2 mini and sync it up with external tc ?
also the new sony , does the avid have any trouble read tc data on audio track from ex cards ?
 
c3kings said:
Dear All,
For my new project, I need to use double system, and I will get a SD 702T to record the sound, but HVX200 doesn't sync the time code with SD, so I need a Denecke or Ambient TC slate or sync generator. Am I correct, so far? But actually, I don't know the next step. I don't know about the workflow. Can anyone give me more information? Also, please do share your experience of using Denecke or Ambient? I am not sure which syncing device I should use.
Thanks in advance.
King
Click to expand...

King,
Why do you "need" to use a double system? The shoots I've worked on I was able to go to the camera (even on some dramas). The only time I used a double system for video was on a multi camera doc. shoot. Used lectro 411's to hop to the cameras (Sony Z1U's) then I used the 744T w/time of day running and my slate open (so the timecode would always be visible) on the bag. So the 744t was used as a back up if the 411's failed and also if we needed more than 2ch of audio. When the camera rolls you shoot the timecode running on the slate so the editor has a visual reference. It worked out great. I'm not sure if the producers used the 744t for anything other than some of the situations when I had three people mic'd up with a boom covering everything else (4 ch of audio).

For the most part the Panasonic camera's have solid audio systems that can deliver good quailty audio, unless I am doing a drama and needed multi tracks
or (of course) if the client request differently- I would run the audio direct into the camera (monitored by you). Hope this helps JM2C.
Good luck
 
Ted, your suggestion looks promising. Wait until I get my 702T unit, and I will try.
Allen, I do agree with you that the sound recording ability of HVX200 is very good, but I also read something from this thread:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=120769'
Anyway, I am making a documentary film about a classical musician, and he will conduct an orchestra. My plan is to set the 702T all the time to record the orhestra performance all the time, and my boom directly going into HVX200 will reocrd his interaction with the orchestral members. Does it make sense to you?
Thanks.
King
 
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