Do what I do...

[Erik Olson]

See, personally, if someone doesn't like my ideas I don't work with them. It's simple. I'm happy and successful. I don't change my ideas and strategies based on criticism, I simply ignore the people who are criticizing because they aren't the ones with ideas, they're the ones who say why ideas are bad...IMO

Your rate of return notwithstanding, remember that you're soliciting to a membership made up of people who are already collaborating on projects. Organically.

Some are novices, but a good deal are working professionals in the production trades. Marketing is an area where many of us could use further insight. That said, you might want to reconsider your tone, because your words are beginning to betray what I believe are your good intentions.

 

[CallaghanFilms]

I'm convinced.

The check in the mail.​

 

[Scott F]

Another poster in another thread was mentioning today that agencies and production houses are losing market-share to independents with DSLRs who have nothing better to do than shoot spec commercials under the guise of "winning" something for their efforts.

:lipsrseal

 

[Erik Olson]

:lipsrseal

Oh, there you are!

 

[David Jimerson]

Well, if you're going to market, you have to understand the market you're getting into. There are only so many banks and so many comic book stores in any given town. But comparatively, your no-budget, no-name video entertainment options are almost limitless.

Banks and comic book stores, too, aren't things you buy. They're places where you buy things you already wanted. It's one thing to tell someone who was going to buy the latest issue of Green Lantern to go to Golden Apple Comics instead of Heroes For Hire Comics, but they're only going because they want to buy Green Lantern in the first place. It's much more difficult thing to convince him to buy Green Lantern, especially if he doesn't generally buy comic books to begin with, and it'll be darn near impossible to convince them to buy a graphic novel they've never heard of with characters they don't know and by people they don't know. And most people don't buy more than a few movies at all, even ones they love.

 

[Mark Harris]

Can't DVXFest repackage the festival winners and best runners-up into a DVD that could be promoted through more far-reaching sites like FB? I still like the idea of DVXUser collaboration, but I see a lot of landmines trying to pull off a sanctioned, underwritten project by DVXUser directly.

That's a great idea. They should do that right after the HorrorFest DVD comes out.

 

[Erik Olson]

That's a great idea. They should do that right after the HorrorFest DVD comes out.

How you doin?

 

[David Jimerson]

There have been compilations of prior fests put to DVD. Don't know anything about how well they sold, or how it was tried.

But I suppose something like that could be the pudding in which to prove this model. Might even be the ideal proof of concept.

 

[Sad Max]

I think that would be 'the pudding with which to prove this model.'

Otherwise we all run the risk of getting covered in pudding.

Well, come to think of it, maybe that would be kind of fun.

 

[Erik Olson]

There's always room for pudding. I think Ikea's promotion violated the FB TOU, but it does illustrate the power social networks can have in moving product.

 

[David Jimerson]

What did they do?

 

[Chamber005]

Well, if you're going to market, you have to understand the market you're getting into. There are only so many banks and so many comic book stores in any given town. But comparatively, your no-budget, no-name video entertainment options are almost limitless.

Banks and comic book stores, too, aren't things you buy. They're places where you buy things you already wanted. It's one thing to tell someone who was going to buy the latest issue of Green Lantern to go to Golden Apple Comics instead of Heroes For Hire Comics, but they're only going because they want to buy Green Lantern in the first place. It's much more difficult thing to convince him to buy Green Lantern, especially if he doesn't generally buy comic books to begin with, and it'll be darn near impossible to convince them to buy a graphic novel they've never heard of with characters they don't know and by people they don't know. And most people don't buy more than a few movies at all, even ones they love.

This is so untrue I can't even quanitify how untrue it is. It is MUCH easier to get someone who reads comic books to buy a new-never-before-heard-of-comic-book than it is to ask them to drive an extra five miles out of their way to buy comics from a different store.

Marketing is about ACCESSIBILITY. Accessibility is your number two enemy in marketing your product, number one is obviously branding/name recognition.

You're saying that the number of direct-to-DVD movies is limitless, and I'm saying that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that everyone makes white bread, all that matters is that you know about MY white bread and how it is easily ACCESSIBLE for you to purchase and oh btw here's the link www.

In the end, everyone watches TV, some watch movies, and some others still purchase DVDs and movies off of iTunes. The ones who purchase DVDs will purchase your DVD if your marketing tells them to do it, especially if that marketing involves word-of-mouth advertising and consistent branding/name recognition.

 

[Chamber005]

Your rate of return notwithstanding, remember that you're soliciting to a membership made up of people who are already collaborating on projects. Organically.

Some are novices, but a good deal are working professionals in the production trades. Marketing is an area where many of us could use further insight. That said, you might want to reconsider your tone, because your words are beginning to betray what I believe are your good intentions.

???

I think you misread something. If you're talking about the zero cost word-of-mouth only style of marketing, no one is soliciting to other professionals, the professionals were soliciting to their friends, fanbase, etc.

To me, the easiest way for a solicitation like this to exist is to simply tell everyone in your personal network that you joined a coalition of filmmakers and that you will be informing them throughout the year regarding the new released films from said coalition.

 

[Chamber005]

Sorry, but this just sounds like American Idol contestants who tell a panel of unanimous judges that they're wrong, the audition was great, and they don't know what they're talking about. Except they wouldn't be sitting behind the table if they didn't.

I'm pretty sure what I do in business is nothing like being an American Idol contestant. The American Idol contestant needs to be a contestant because they can't do it for themselves, hence they're at the boot heel of some random judge. In your analogy, my position in marketing is more similar to the judges' roles than it is of the contestant.

If I walk into your business, I'm there because I believe in your business. I do this IN ADDITION to my job banking where I make the bulk of my more "steady" income a few hours per week. If I'm marketing for your company, while it's not the same thing as me doing straight up volunteer work (which I do quite a bit of), it's pretty close. You're paying me at the end of every 90 days because I made your company a larger profit than what it would have made without my services (the equation being assessed at the outset taking last years figures and inflation and 5 year growth percentages into account). If I don't improve profits, though, and I spent $3,000 on marketing for your business, that's a cost that I eat and I move on. That's a dead horse (or it's just a horse that I personally cannot kickstart back to life).

Everything I've done here is to try and HELP people by giving them FREE ADVICE. They don't have to take it, they can choose to ignore it. But what I'll never understand is why people feel this desperate need to come in and say not, "No, I have an even BETTER idea!" but simply, "That idea is stupid."

lol

Not a single person here has offered a single solution or better marketing strategy. I've taken my personal real world business experience and have tried to equate it to the independent film industry to the best of my abilities. I didn't have to do that, I did it because I'm an awesome person and I like to share information with those I feel might be less educated than I in business and marketing practices. But in the end, I don't actually care if someone takes my advice.

lol, Hell I even said I will freely give 500 bucks to some random pot for some random project of filmmakers here on DVX, and all I hear are people griping?

Just bizarre.

I pretty much started being interested in filmmaking around the same time I joined DVXuser, which wasn't very long ago. So of course everything I'm presenting are THEORIES based on business practices used to solicit other types of products and services, but I don't KNOW it works; it's an idea -- and I even came up with a FREE idea! lol Come on...

 

[Chamber005]

There's no harm in working on new ideas, but they need to be checked against reality. Entertainment is cheap and easy to come by, and there are many, many free options (even if some aren't legal, you're still competing against them). 20% is a ludicrously high figure. Think more like 0.2%, and even that's optimistic. Perhaps 0.02% is closer to what you might actually do -- unless you have some compelling reason for people to be interested.

If you have something specifically targeted toward an audience who's willing to pay for your specific thing, then you might get somewhere. But the spaghetti-against-the-wall approach won't particularly work -- and if you're unwilling to make something which DOES target an audience (i.e., due to "artistic integrity" concerns), you're basically playing the lottery. Maybe something will happen to catch the mood of an audience and hit (it happens once or twice a decade or so). But it almost certainly won't, especially if you have no recognizable talent involved. And you're then pretty much dealing only with people who will put up a few bucks simply to "support" whatever it is you're doing. That's not a market; that's just charity, and it won't be a living.

Anyone will watch something on YouTube. Getting them to pony up $20 is considerably harder. You have to fill a need, a want, and make something a lot of people would be willing to pay for. All the marketing and word-of-mouth in the world won't matter if you don't.

So, concentrate on making something that's marketable. Then do the marketing. You really can't do it any other way and expect to get anywhere.

Again, not in my experience.

Think about something very real world easy to grasp. Ask yourself why a typical homeowner would come out of a 6% FHA federally secured 30 year fixed loan and trade it in for a 9% 2-year adjustable rate mortgage also amortized at 30 years? And do it in DROVES!

They all had their reasons, but in the end they did it because they were told to do it.

Why do people eat McDonalds? It tastes worse than fresh, homemade food, you feel worse and you die quicker if you eat it, and yet you still eat it. An assortment of factors have been set up so that you're at that McDonalds buying that one dollar cheeseburger, and it can't be because it's cheaper because in every metric that's ever been done that 1 dollar cheeseburger will cost you 10 dollars in medical expenses (I'm making that figure up, but the literature is out there).

ANSWER: You eat McDonalds because McDonalds is TELLING you to eat McDonalds and then making it ACCESSIBLE to you. There are literally entire network television shows and full length features DEDICATED to telling you that you shouldn't eat at McDonalds, and yet there you are in the drive thru lane again tomorrow.

We can say that the world is just full of idiots, but whether they're idiots or you're just good at marketing, the result is the same: Sales.

(and of course "you" is subjective. You may hate McDonalds. God knows I do. lol)

It's our job to make people feel that they MUST own this thing, whatever it is. And the easiest way to tap into that kind of core impulse is pack mentality marketing -- and it's also the cheapest if you have an established coalition, fanbase, whatever.

 

[Erik Olson]

Okay, I'll bite. People can go back and read your posts and everyone else's and decide who is setting the tone here. For the moment, here is the word...

so·lic·it

/səˈlɪs

ɪt/
–verb (used with object) 1. to seek for (something) by entreaty, earnest or respectful request, formal application, etc.: He solicited aid from the minister.
2. to entreat or petition (someone or some agency): to solicit the committee for funds.
3. to seek to influence or incite to action, esp. unlawful or wrong action.
4. to offer to have sex with in exchange for money.

...remember that you're soliciting to a membership made up of people who are already collaborating on projects. Organically.

Some are novices, but a good deal are working professionals in the production trades. Marketing is an area where many of us could use further insight...

I believe we can rule out definitions 3 and 4.

Hopefully.

What I was trying to get to is that a lot of people are already collaborating on creative projects through DVXUser. I then stated that many of us could benefit from marketing consultation in our work. Finding any opportunity that moves members' projects and careers forward is almost an "all upside" concept.

My larger point was that your cavalier sounding "my way or the highway" attitude might not net you as much interest as a more humble approach might. You started the thread with what could be a perfectly-formulated manifesto for marketing success - but quickly went defensive - sounding off the minute someone posted anything even slightly contrary to your concept.

Again, I'll state that your's might be a worthwhile effort. But this is a discussion board and hyper-sensitivity to the honest sharing of ideas will shut down any chance at collaboration more quickly than even the worst idea on the planet.

 

[David Jimerson]

This is so untrue I can't even quanitify how untrue it is. It is MUCH easier to get someone who reads comic books to buy a new-never-before-heard-of-comic-book than it is to ask them to drive an extra five miles out of their way to buy comics from a different store.

That isn't what I said.

You're saying that the number of direct-to-DVD movies is limitless

This, too, is not what I said.

and I'm saying that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that everyone makes white bread, all that matters is that you know about MY white bread and how it is easily ACCESSIBLE for you to purchase and oh btw here's the link www.

It matters when you're asking someone to pony up $20 for a loaf of white bread when almost everyone else gives it away for free or for pennies.

In the end, everyone watches TV, some watch movies, and some others still purchase DVDs and movies off of iTunes. The ones who purchase DVDs will purchase your DVD if your marketing tells them to do it, especially if that marketing involves word-of-mouth advertising and consistent branding/name recognition.

And I'm telling you, that isn't going to be 20%. It's not even going to be 2%.

 

[David Jimerson]

I'm pretty sure what I do in business is nothing like being an American Idol contestant.

One of these days, you might respond to something I actually said rather than your contrivance that's easier to deflect.

I didn't say your business practices were like that. I didn't quote your business idea when I said that. I quoted your "I won't hear any criticism" attitude.

Which brings me to:

So of course everything I'm presenting are THEORIES based on business practices used to solicit other types of products and services, but I don't KNOW it works

Then perhaps you should listen to someone who actually makes his living producing and selling DVDs of pictures that move. Do you think I'm saying these things simply to be contrary?

 

[Chamber005]

Okay, I'll bite. People can go back and read your posts and everyone else's and decide who is setting the tone here. For the moment, here is the word...

so·lic·it

/səˈlɪs

ɪt/
–verb (used with object) 1. to seek for (something) by entreaty, earnest or respectful request, formal application, etc.: He solicited aid from the minister.
2. to entreat or petition (someone or some agency): to solicit the committee for funds.
3. to seek to influence or incite to action, esp. unlawful or wrong action.
4. to offer to have sex with in exchange for money.



I believe we can rule out definitions 3 and 4.

Hopefully.

What I was trying to get to is that a lot of people are already collaborating on creative projects through DVXUser. I then stated that many of us could benefit from marketing consultation in our work. Finding any opportunity that moves members' projects and careers forward is almost an "all upside" concept.

My larger point was that your cavalier sounding "my way or the highway" attitude might not net you as much interest as a more humble approach might. You started the thread with what could be a perfectly-formulated manifesto for marketing success - but quickly went defensive - sounding off the minute someone posted anything even slightly contrary to your concept.

Again, I'll state that your's might be a worthwhile effort. But this is a discussion board and hyper-sensitivity to the honest sharing of ideas will shut down any chance at collaboration more quickly than even the worst idea on the planet.

But...*I'm* not soliciting anything (in any context I would define the word). *I* am the person giving free advice. I have no personal reason today to be a part of any sort of coalition, first and foremost because *I* don't have a DVD for sale. lol

There was a bit of confusion on my part, though. I thought you meant that within the marketing strategy I was saying people should solicit other professionals. But you meant that *I* was soliciting other professionals. I'm really not, I'm just giving people free advice.

The poster after me mentioned some contest of funds or something and I said, if it took someone to raise their hand first, I'd be glad to pony up 500 bucks for the effort if that's where the mood of the thread was going. But, honest, I, personally, am completely fine. I don't need to sell a movie or form grand alliances with other filmmakers, I'm saying that some of the filmmakers here should think about doing it. I put the feelers out already some months back and, as I said, was met with such bitter disdain and anger I said forget it and dealt exclusively instead with a few people via PM, but nothing consequential.

Like, no joke, I had people here PMing me that I should just not talk about it anymore because people are just short-sighted and naive and oh by the way would I please invest in their film?

It might still come up before this thread is done, but I literally offered my marketing services FOR FREE (no commission backend, nothing) to three separate filmmakers here and every single one of them turned me down simply because they couldn't grasp why in the world I would want to do something like that. One filmmaker contacted me and took me up on the offer but, alas, I think the project withered or they just got busy with something else because I never heard anything back from them and, honestly, I'm not chasing someone down to let me work for them for free.

In the end people don't want ideas to implement, they want free sh&%. That's the message I usually get when I bring up these kinds of things and try to help out the young filmmakers here. Everyone wants to be Kevin Smith or Robert Rodriguez when they should want to be Roger Corman -- because THAT'S something that's actually WITHIN THEIR POWER to obtain. Kevin Smith's success was not in his power, it was in the power of someone else to bequeath him with success. Roger Corman created success through more than just talent (and god knows there was a shortage); he did it by treating film as a business, not a lottery.

My grandfather was a ridiculously successful salesperson in New York. He actually coined the phrase "It's the next best thing to being there". If he would have had access to the kinds of marketing we have today he would have probably been a millionaire 20 times over. If he was alive today and I told him, "Guess what grandpa, for 50 bucks I just got a 350,000 unique impressions and a .35% click-thru rate and a .15% purchase rate on this 20 dollar a month life insurance I'm selling totalling $10,500 in sales plus additional annual revenue" he probably would have dropped dead flat.

Man, now I miss my grandpa.

:\

 

[Sad Max]

Since you missed responding to this earlier - understandable, since you're responding to a lot of stuff on this thread - I thought I'd repost it for you to respond to, now. Because I'm helpful.

Chamber, given your confidence in this model - given that you are advising other people to expend their resources and assume risk based upon your promotion of this model - I assume that you have at least one successful project that has earned out, using it.

So, where can we see this project? Youtube? A dedicated site? The shelf at the local Blockbuster?

I mean, I assume that you wouldn't promote something like this without evidence that demonstrates its practicality, *and* apparently you don't cope very well with being questioned on anything, so how about showing us how you have successfully exploited this concept you're presenting?