do I really need a tc capable recorder?

You should be able to find a 671 for $850 - $900 but you can probably find a Tascam in the same range, maybe a bit higher. I like the way the Marantz works mechanically. I like the slide record, as opposed to the push button. I liked it on the old HHB DAT's also. It just feels better when your over the shoulder recording FX. However your doing production so... The first 671 I got had old firmware in it and the place I bought it from was local. They are great and I try to make any big purchase I can from them (small and not a chain!). They usually can match or come close enough, and they are the ones that pointed out that CA has a tax credit for professional purchases for film and video (shaves 5% off the sales tax). On the Marantz I got a Portabrace bag at the same time and they ended up cheaper than out of state discounters. But the biggie was that they ordered replacements for their stock of 671's (they hadn't heard about the firmware glitch in the first models) and let me keep playing with the one I had (it was on trial, I hadn't paid a dime yet) till a replacement came in, then we just swapped. They have also given me loaners before when shipping had gotten held up or something was in for repair. This is a bit of subject but there are great advantages to getting to know your local pro audio dealer.

Anyway there was a rumor that they upgraded the pre's when they fixed the firmware bug. So that may be why my opinion of the pre's is better than some others that I've read. I found them to be pretty good. A little noisier than the MixPre but not a huge amount. They also sounded OK. My tests were semi scientific, I ran a tone into our Foley stage and set the recording to a set level. Then recorded Room Tone and a variety of sounds and pink noise. I ran the files through some analyzer plugins I have as a "impartial" test. So YMMV?

The 670 though has pre's that have been reported all over to pretty much suck. I've said this before but I still use the MixPre as the front end because of the tone, limiter and rolloff (and occasionally the slate mic).

And Phill, Film in the old days did a lot of things we don't want to do anymore. But they had a bunch of people getting paid to do it. I don't think most of the folks on this board have a crew to sluff off all the syncing to. As an example when I was out at the Ranch, the DLG DAT's would be auto assembled into a DAW session, about a day per reel, then an assistant would "phase" them also about a day a reel. That's two days for ten minutes. So assuming you have some auto assembly software (I can point you to a good one for around $600) your still looking at 18 rays or so for a feature - Just to sync the tracks. I haven't worked on a low budget film that had the budget to do that. So it's not so much sucking it up as trying to pay the rent. If the camera tracks suck you don't have much choice but if they are useable on a low budget I've got to go with them. Now "usable" is a moving target, but I try to use the camera tracks. If they are really bad I'll try to work something out with the director but usually there is no extra $ for post and often there is a very tight deadline. Everyone loves to bring there epic in two weeks before the Sundance deadline... No time, No money, you do what you can.
 
Hey Scott, I was actually trying to make a joke. Being the king of low budget myself, I understand all of the problems associated with it (don't even ask about some of the stuff that went on after you left on that last project).

Bottom line for me, I always try here to recommend the best way to do something as if you have unlimited budget, and then pare back from there. So many that post here don't even have that level of basic understanding.

Besides, this will keep you much busier, right??? ;-)

Phil
 
Ok so here's my new recorder plan - still going to sync it all in post as I have lots of time, no deadlines, I am the editor, and I am a glutton for punishment. Will stil go back to the camera with a wireless most likely just for the heck of it and I can monitor sound that way from the camera. That will also let me lock the picture with pretty good sound before I go sync it up.

As for which recorder - I'm going with the HDP2. I'm a big believer in a break the bank when its worth it and I'm thinking this is worth it. It just looks like I'll have alot more control and more features that will work for me. Now I've got some time before I really need to buy one so if a used 670 or 671 comes along there will be some thinking to do and the price will definitely have to be right. As far as bags for mixer plus recorder is a eargonizer 1 going to work? Looks like plenty of room plus space for extras like laves and adapters and wireless etc... this will be on the big comfy looking harness. Thanks guys for all the input - your experience is worth its weight in gold.
 
Phil,
I'm going to be doing some production recording with Ian next week. It's looking pretty crazy, but I'll know more after I burn out.

I will say about bags. The Portabrace for the 671 is not great. I talked to them about some modifications. THey are very open to such things by the way and were willing to add some straps and stuff for not too much. The problem is that they were thinking of the 671 as a reporters bag and so didn't add the straps and all to connect it to the extra pouches. I did the mod here because I'm cheap and didn't want to loose the bag for a week or two. My guess is that this is not the case with the Tascam but I would check before buying.
 
Oh a small adder. The in camera audio will greatly speed up your syncing if your not doing full take syncs (ie don't have a clapper). But beware that at least the early DVX100 have a ~1.75 frame offset of the audio as it comes out the firewire port. I think this was fixed with the A or maybe B models but? Most picture editors don't notice, which is fine, so I would do the shift on the final cut in PT. So if the lips look a little rubbery that may be the cause. I don't think other cameras had this problem, at least I haven't heard about it or seen it.
 
Damn it Matt, you're killing me! :-)

After reading this thread I became convinced of my need for an HD-P2 and scored one on eBay (just paid for it). Anyhow, what good would a Denecke slate now do for me? Is that what I need for jamming timecode? Does the Denecke display the timecode from the HD-P2 or does it generate the timecode for the HD-P2?
 
The slate is the TC master that you slave the recorder and camera to. Need to make sure you get a smart slate, easily found used for around $500-$800.

As to the larger topic, TC is not valuable for most non-TC out camera shoots but I found one time it is invaluable: going wireless to DVX style cams on ENG documentary shoots. You can manually sync them into within a couple of seconds of each other at start of the day (free run) and then if you do need to match up audio later, use the TC to get close, figure out the TC difference once and then use number for all the syncing that day. Do a drift check at the beginning and end of the day to adjust for any drift you might get between the cam and recorder throughout day.

Cheers
 
I wll be trying to use the HD-P2 with the Red One camera. Now the Red One has a TC In/Out 5-pin lemo connector.

So what would be the smartest thing to do if I wanted to be tethered to the Red for some shots and then go untethered for a steadicam shot or something? The HD-P2 has an XLR TC in and a BNC "Word Clock/Video Ref In", which would I use? Or is the truly smart thing for me to pony up for a Denecke and then run the Denecke into both the Red and the Hd-P2? Or do I only run it into the HD-P2 and then slave the Red to that timecode in post?
 
oh sh1t!!! I just read a DVXUser post that the HD-P2 can't generate any timecode of it's own and that you have to send it timecode. So the reason I bought it was to run it independent of my camera (like steadicam shots, etc.). So then how the hell would my HDP2 know what the TC is? Does this mean I have to buy a Denecke or my HDP2's TC capability is worthless to me?? f1ck!
 
Shawneous,

The HD-P2 can actually generate its own timecode. The limitation is suffers from is that it does not have a TC out capability. So, if the Red has TC out, you can jam the HD-P2 directly from the Red. The HVX/DVX does not have this, so you can run TOD, or set the TC on the camera to be "close" to the TC on the recorder.

But, in any case, you will probably want a TC slate - it gives you the visual version of the TC. I use my TS2-SB slate as my TC master - but be sure to put a piece of tape over the power switch. :-)

Phil

P.S. - had to modify this post - it was #1000 for me. :-)
 
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Thanks Phil! Red indeed has TC out. So it seems it would behoove me to get a TC wireless transmitter. That way I can transmit TC from Red to my bag and then when I score a used Denecke (on the lookout starting tonight) I could go wireless from the Denecke to the HDP2.

So...what is the most cost effective way to wirelessly transmit a TC signal?
 
Whoops...you don't need to go wireless. Just get an appropriate cable, jam the HD-P2, unplug and go. It doesn't need a permanent connection. Just re-jam it at lunch and you should be good for the day. Same thing with the slate. Just set it into Jam mode and use the camera as the master.

Wireless does eliminate the need for the cable, but the cable is much much less expensive. If you do really want to go wireless, most used Comteks to deal with it.

Phil
 
Oh sweet! I sure appreciate the late night replies Phil! :-)

Once you get up into these higher level audio questions, the answers are hard to come by! I got out my Jay Rose book and it was worthless in regards to these issues.

I'm sure glad about the cable. I'll just use that until I can score a Denecke, then I'll get wireless to run from the Denecke to the audio bag, then adjust the camera to the slate in post. Sound good?

Anyhow, so if I understand you right, any old wireless would work for transmitting TC? Why use Comteks? a quick B&H check shows me that a Comtek tx+rx is going to run me around $900. Wow! Why not just use a Senn G2 system? Or if I remember, you advocate the Listentech, could I use one of those?
 
Hmmm... Now the more I'm reading, the more I'm thinking a smart slate would be nice to have. But I'm totally green on slating and TC so bare with me for a minute:

HVX wont jam or accept from anything...
Jam TC slate to HDP2 at the beginning of day and again at lunch to account for drift between slate and hdp2 (tape of slate power switch!)
use slate as any other clapper but use visual TC to sync camera and external recorder in post.

Is that the right workflow? How long do the smart slate batteries last - looking at denecke tc-3 (non backlit).

Thanks for the help guys.
 
Ok just thought of another question along these lines - say I go with the above and also wirelessly send audio to the camera. If I edit with the wireless sound to lock the picture etc, then go to edit in pro tools, I cant use the timecode to sync to, because all of my slate shots will be gone and edited out. Syncing with the video of the slate, should I sync in the NLE and then export to Pro Tools? Thanks again for all the help, just trying to get it all figured out before I buy things I dont need.
 
As long as you know what take goes where and you have a guide track on the video (the audio you sent to the camera) then you just "phase" the regions in PT. Stick the replacement audio close to where it should be (you can get very close visually) then slide the new audio around while soloing it and the guide track till they sound like only one is playing. Set your nudge factor small, 1/4 frame or so and highlight the region and you can nudge it while playing. You can get sample level visually if that's faster for you, by zooming way in and lining the two tracks up.
You don't want to do this in the NLE because it is probably only FRAME acurate and that isn't fine enough.
 
well if I'm going to be doing it that way (which sounds like the most accurate/simple) - would having the tc slate do me any good? I could just free run the external and camera to time of day to assist with any question as to which clip went with which.
 
Shawneous,

Not quite. There is no reason to have any wireless in the mix. You can either use the camera as your master and jam the P2 and the slate, or use the slate as your master and jam the P2 and the camera. The only thing that can't be the master is the P2. (I'm presuming here that the Red can be jammed - I don't know much about it yet). Obviously, this doesn't work with the HVX/DVX, since they don't have TC in or out.

And, I'd recommend making the slate the master, since you can have better control over it - you never know what a pesky DP might do to the camera timecode. This way you can always re-jam it from the slate.

I've run the slate for more than 12 hours on a single set of AA's, but haven't actually run it out to see how long they last.

Phil
 
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