Do I have to turn over footage?

housetwelve

housetwelve

Member
Long story short: A good friend of mine brought me in to shoot for a documentary she was working on. I've done doc work with her in the past, and was excited about the story, but there were some red flags. She has formed an LLC with a co-producer, who then demanded her husband get a production credit and things got really weird fast.

I avoided signing any kind of contract. I travelled to both coasts for multiple days of filming and edited a trailer that has been submitted with funding applications. I submitted an invoice, knowing it would only be paid if they got funding. And now we've gotten to the point where people are starting to pull out of the project due to the abuse from this couple.

I know when I officially withdraw, they will demand the footage from me. What is my obligation?

I plan on consulting with a lawyer on this, but I was hoping for some filmmaker perspective if there are multiple roads I can take.
 
In short, it there was no contract setup in advance you shot the footage so you own the rights to it. Anyone who wants it has to buy it from you, or license it from you for specific use based on a term agreement.

You are not obligated to give them the footage. Even if they pay your invoice, the invoice is not a contract that signs over the rights to the footage so they are out of luck.

Keep it amicable and professional, likely they don't understand how rights to property works, so you will have to be a bit patient and educate them. Come to some agreement or arrangement.

Yes consult a lawyer.
 
That's right. Unless they have it spelled out in the contract you hold the copyright to that footage. You have all the cards. Just send the invoice.
 
Thank you, Dennis! This is how I understood it to be, but I wasn't sure how the invoice would play into things. So glad to know I have options.
 
OK, just because you don't have a written contract, it doesn't mean you don't have a verbal contract, and just because something isn't signed, it doesn't mean it isn't binding IF you start performing on the agreement, as you have.

You agreed to shoot for them, which at least makes it arguably a shoot for hire, which means they would hold ownership the footage, not you. And if they paid your invoice, then they're performing on the agreement, and the footage would in all likelihood be theirs.

Based on what you have described, you are not as clear as you'd like to think. You need to consult an attorney on this and give them as much detail as possible.
 
My hazy non-lawyer understanding of work-for-hire agreements is that they do need to be written or fixed in some way since there's so much room for abuse if you just roll with a verbal contract. But I could be wrong and I totally agree that it's probably worth talking to a lawyer who deeply understands filmmaking and copyright.

But another issue: could they try to claim that you were mainly a technician and they were the actual author/director(s) of the work? Like: did they hand you a shot list, travel with you to the locations, and "direct" your work? Could they say you were "just" a camera op and punch-the-buttons editor? Further: are they cranky enough to argue that even if they know it's not true?

There's a well-known copyright case with a GREAT name that touches on this. Here's a summary:

Lindsay v. The Wrecked and Abandoned Vessel R.M.S. Titanic
http://www.invispress.com/law/copyright/lindsay.html

Nut line: "The Trial Court found that even though Lindsay did not hold the video camera, he was the 'creative force' behind the video, and so was the author for copyright purposes."

From your post, it sounds like the producers weren't functioning at all like Lindsay. But how litigious, vengeful, and wealthy are these people?

Ya: Talk to a lawyer.

Good luck!
 
Also don't write anymore about it here or elsewhere what was said, or not said, etc..

Just consult a lawyer. That is best right now.
 
Usually it's an understanding between you and the client that they do get all the video footage you shoot at the end of the day but they don't have exclusive rights to it.

If your invoice is for the time you been hired and there's no invoice for rights to the footage it's surely yours, not the clients footage. It's like if your hired to shoot a wedding and the final invoice includes a number of prints/or video but no rights to the footage, the client have to pay more to get more prints or access to photo/video files for use at their discretion.

It's easy to understand if you make an analogy:

If you purchase something from a store and get an invoice. Until that invoice is paid the invoice usually state that the item is their property until paid. So if you don't get paid the client has no right to it.
 
Devil's advocate. You essentially agreed to shoot their project for free. It was their idea / concept etc. Regardless of situation, why don't you want to hand over the footage? Why do you want to retain it?
 
David Jimerson said:
OK, just because you don't have a written contract, it doesn't mean you don't have a verbal contract, and just because something isn't signed, it doesn't mean it isn't binding IF you start performing on the agreement, as you have.
Click to expand...

I agree. It is sometimes the case that if you perform as if a contract existed, then it is deemed contractual. And there are other forms of consideration that they might claim rather than just payment of an invoice.
 
I always wonder how many times the ones who start or end their replay "talk to a lawyer" actually do so when things get questionable...
So before you listen to people who advice something they themselves never do, ask yourself why is the footage so dear that you don't want to turn it over?
As was mentioned before it was their idea.
Are they that much of a-- holes that you want to litigate over some "crappy" footage that based on the couples demeanor will never see a light of day anyway?
And why litigate in the first place? Why be a--hole yourself? Just gracefully distance yourself from the project. Stop being available for the shoot dates. Find your own story to film and enjoy shooting your own footage and don't burn a bridge in the process.

This reminds me of a curious case of some strange woman who wanted to hire me to film her doc. She didn't have the money to pay me upfront but was convinced she'll get it (thus pay me) withing 3 months of filming. I know enough that there is nothing certain about getting money now, in 3 months or never, so i called her bluff. I asked if it would be ok for me to hold onto the footage (of a project that was not yet shot) until i get paid. She exploded calling me a thief! I calmly explained that i can't be a thief since a.) there is noting to steal yet and b.) i'm asking the future owner of the possession if i can hold onto it (which, one would think, invalidates stealing). Needless to say distance myself from her (i had to beg her to stop emailing me).
 
Patryk makes the point that I was going to make. It is unfortunate that in this business you will be screwed out of money about once a year until you reach a high level of jobs. You can send an invoice and if they pay it, move on with life. If they want the footage, then send it to them and move on. If they don't pay it you can either sell it to collections agency or deduct it as a loss on your taxes. If they don't pay it you can spread the word of warning around the community and let the other people know that they should get money up front if those people call them for work. What you would be paid is not going to make up for the cost of legal representation in many cases.

And if they want to footage, send it to them on floppy disks, a whole truckload if that is required. Else they will need to provide the storage device as you can't be expected to incur additional expense by providing a hard drive or optical disks. The same expense applies to uploading to a server, your internet connection is an expense. Basically make them provide a drive.
 
Patryk_Rebisz said:
I always wonder how many times the ones who start or end their replay "talk to a lawyer" actually do so when things get questionable...
So before you listen to people who advice something they themselves never do.
Click to expand...

You make some helpful points, but starting with a statement that says, "I don't know what other people do, but I'll blame them for doing what they might or might not do" doesn't strike me as helpful.

Just saying.
 
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without knowing anything about the nature of the project I'm assuming that the reason he wants to hold onto it is because he thinks it is interesting enough to repurpose or sell somehow.
 
I see repurposing or selling outright to be the opening for a counter claim from the original "idea" generators that sent him to get it. Even if you win in a court of law, you probably end up losing a good portion of what it might be worth to legal fees and lost work while in the courtroom. If you have someone (lawyer) on retainer who can look into it for a couple hundred $$$ and you think it is worth a few thousand$$$ then it might be worth it.

If the invoice is worth several thousand to more than $10,000 then it might be worth billing them and seeing what happens. Then when they don't pay you can sell the invoice to a collections agency or bring them to court for payment. You did deliver work, so you should be entitled to compensation, but I bet a judge finds that you did indeed have a contract for services. And that contract is about the only way you can get money from them. The lawyer yet again appears in the picture to drain away any profits.
 
Greg_E said:
Patryk makes the point that I was going to make. It is unfortunate that in this business you will be screwed out of money about once a year until you reach a high level of jobs. You can send an invoice and if they pay it, move on with life. If they want the footage, then send it to them and move on. If they don't pay it you can either sell it to collections agency or deduct it as a loss on your taxes. If they don't pay it you can spread the word of warning around the community and let the other people know that they should get money up front if those people call them for work. What you would be paid is not going to make up for the cost of legal representation in many cases.

And if they want to footage, send it to them on floppy disks, a whole truckload if that is required. Else they will need to provide the storage device as you can't be expected to incur additional expense by providing a hard drive or optical disks. The same expense applies to uploading to a server, your internet connection is an expense. Basically make them provide a drive.
Click to expand...

How exactly does this work? In my early days, I got stiffed out of a few grand when a friends company went belly-up. My accountant said that the IRS would not accept it as a loss or deduction, because there was never any taxes paid on any money(all they car about is if there is money to collect taxes on). Maybe it would have been different if I had been a corporation then and I would have paid myself for the work and then the corporation could deduct that as a loss when it never got paid, but as an individual/sole proprietor at the time, he said I was just screwed out of that money.
 
This has been brilliant, thanks for the replies.

Many good points were raised. There are a couple details that I left out of the story that negates some replies, and generally just makes the situation more complicated. Based on some of the advice given, I'll continue to withhold that information, but I am looking forward to talking to a lawyer.

But to answer the recurring question--I have no problem with releasing the footage, maybe even without getting paid (although I'm not volunteering it at this point). I'm just waiting for certain things to play out on their end, and preparing in case things go poorly and she comes after me hard.
 
As you are running a business, there is a profit line and a loss line. Stiffed jobs go in the loss line for their value. (overly simplified)
 
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