Do film students really need their own cameras?

ecarr said:
so..... is tina any closer to deciding on a camera after all this? i'm kind of in the same situation, except i'm still in high school with access to a pd150. i've been on top of this thread and i'm just curious what you finally decide.

it's great though, how this turned into a discussion of weather and skiing. this place is awesome, lol.
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Yeah, the DVX100a, which is what is in the proposal. I just have to justify the expense, and I think I've gotten some excellent justifications from this thread, thank you very much. :)

I just think I will do better if I'm able to live with the camera, and not be at the whim of whether they have them to check out or not. The only way a person can even begin down the road of mastering something is to live with it.

ETA: mmm, CSUN has a Screenwriting option in their cinema program. Click Here and scroll down.
 
When I was at film school, we did have to take screenwriting, for a year at least, but when it came time for the major productions, writing wasn't considered a role valid for credit!!!! Completely stupid, I know! We complained about it so hard that I believe they changed it after I left.
 
That stinks. From what I've always read, the role of screenwriter is often dismissed. I took screenwriting for about a year. I have a treatment and part of the script, but I'm not sure I'll ever finish it. Everybody thinks they can write a great script, but that's BS. Writing is damned hard, and screenwriting is no easier. Dunno if I'll ever finish mine. Dunno if it's worth finishing. It has some great moments, but hey, even the crappiest of stories have great moments -- does that mean it's worth reading? Not necessarily.

Writing is a solitary persuit, and sometimes I wonder if that isn't part of the problem with its devaluation in some areas, if I'm making any sense.
 
My experience is do what you have to do to get a camera, at 34 (last year) I went back to school to study video production. 2nd quarter in I bought a DVX on eBay and have never once regretted the decision. I live an hour and a half from school so for me the advantages are obvious, I can shoot when ever and where ever I want. I tend to shoot a lot more stuff then my fellow classmates just because I can. I sold a project I made 2nd quarter thanks in part to the camera because it looked so great. (well, it looked ok, but hey it was my second quarter!). The stuff I made during the first quarter is totally un-watchable partially because of the cameras, and partially because I sucked.

I had barely picked up a camera before I started, but it is something I had always wanted to do. Its not like I had no creative background, I’ve been acting and writing my whole life, I just did not have the opportunity to tell stories like this until I got my own tools.

That being said, and some members of this board might consider it sacrilege, but the dvx is just a tool. It is not, I repeat not, the most important part of making successful videos it’s only a tool in the artist’s hand. You can make great video with a cell phone camera with a little imagination and creativity. A lot of film students get caught up in the tools and equipment, without any thought for the story. On the other hand my pieces tend to be story driven and a little weak technically, so I gather people around me who have the technical skills, owning the camera everyone wants to use helps with that.
 
i don't know if its because a solitary pursuit, and it isn't necessarily there are many people co-write scripts.

Maybe its due to a variety reasons. I think film is usually thought of as a visual medium, which leads to a focus on hardware and good looking actors.

You don't have to much talent if you are good looking to make money and acquire fame. I saw one episode of baywatch and man that was pathetic acting.

It could aslo be that hollywood it saturated with scripts, both good and bad.

Furthermore, audiences are very much attracted to visual and special effects. I think that we could all list films that heavy in those areas and have a very weak script (Lucas and his last trilogy is most obvious, in addition to some really really bad acting in the film).

Why would film schools devalue the role of script writing though? Well I never went to film school so wouldn't be able to say. I wonder if the digital revolution has contributed to this though. Before, when film was the only medium and it really cost to make a film, people in the industry would really have to think and plan before making a film (especiailly if they wanted to make a profit).

The cost was just too high to mess around. Now, all you have to do is turn the switch on to a camcorder. Anyone can make a film (not necessarily a good one though).

Murch, in an interview, talked about how cutting film, on film, was like sacred moment. When you cut film, you really make a cut of the flim. The cost was monetary, emotional, etc. But with digital you can cut all day and not have to worry about it. He considered this somewhat a disadvantage. Interesting, because in many feel its great. You could literally make a myriad cuts with on digital. Many consider this a great advantage.

Back to scripts, with digital you could collect a lot of shots and put them together with music as a montage with very little cost. In a semester or quarter system, this may mean a lot. Accolades are given to those who produce something great and fast. Whereas, a script is very time consuming and in the end there is still no visual only text.

If film is considered a just a visual medium or primarily one we can see where it is that the value goes.

Also, do most audiences really care about a good script (look at all the revenue generated by the latest star wars trilogy and many other film. Even in comedy, thrillers, and dramas do most audiences really care?). Turn on the television and all you have (for the most part) are poorly written scripts.

So moments may suffice with most. This is really a shame. writing is an art and just anyone can write a terrific screenplay.

As someone mentioned above, either you've got it or you don't. But in the end, if you're interested in commercial writing you probably don't need to have it. This may true when it comes to film school as well.

I guess it comes to what the school or the indivual professor values, in addition to your peers.

Tina, you may want to show your treatment to others. Not just friends though. Friends are sometimes too nice and won't give you a good critique.

Give it to somone experienced and whose talent you admire. Uh, this doesn't have to be Professor.

I've been in academia my whole life. I learned a long time ago, Prof's don't know everything. When it comes to film school I've observed that some filmmakers frown on them (at least the formal ones at universities).

There appears to be some tension there.
 
There is a great book called Film School Confidential. I dont know if it was mentioned earlier in the thread, but here is the online website - www.tomedgar.com/fsc/

The website has excerpts form the book and is worth looking at. I would say before you go any further in this discussion, you should read what the authors have to say about film school. I could say what my opinions are.. but the website will say it best. It isn't a negative look at film schools, just an objective one.


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A visual medium -

Whereas, a script is very time consuming and in the end there is still no visual only text.
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This statement is misleading. Don't forget that sripts are the blueprints of a film. The writer is the first person to actually visualize the film.
but what are the visuals?

-are they the scene descriptions? The actions of the characters?
or
-is it the framing? the dolly moves? steadicam or tripod? follow focus? mattebox? filters? 16:9 or 4:3? 24p or 60i? HD or SD?
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About writing-

Screenwriting it is an art that can be learned. It takes alot of practice and knowledge based on dramatic principles. Practice is the most important part, the dramatic principles are secondary. I say this because, like me, you could have read alot of books about the craft, but still would not be able to write unless you havent been writing. It is as simple as that. Time and hard work will make you a better writer.

Tina, it sounds like you have your head in the right place. You already know that screenwriting is hard. And you have taken some classes. But now you don't know if you will ever finish your script.

I say, don't treat it as though it is the only thing that you will ever write. Treat it as practice, do your research on it, be objective, and write it the best way you know how. Writing is rewriting, so make sure to go through it again after you are finished. Do multiple drafts.
When you are done, you will have made another step towards being the writer you want to be, even if you don't feel it. At this point, you can do whatever you want with the newly finished script. But the guru's say you should focus on writing more scripts instead of spending your whole time pushing the one script you have written that may or may not be worth pushing.

My advise is to challange yourself to keep writing. You alone are the one who puts it down on paper, but dont think that you have to write alone. You have the whole world as you muse. When you get into that mindset, as vague as it may sound, you will feel better about it.

I wish I could offer more advice and encouragement. I think you already know how important the story is to the movie. This is a visual medium, but a medium of what? Oh thats right, storytelling. A visual storytelling medium.

My two favorite books on screenwriting are:

1. Screenplay: Writing the Picture
written by RUSSIN and DOWNS and put out by Silman-James Press

2. The Tools of Screenwriting: A writers guide to the craft and elements of a screenplay.
it is written by David Howard and Edward Mabley and put out by St. Martin's Press
 
Soplease, thank you for your perspective and advise on this -- and for the link to Film School Confidential. I'm checking the site out right now.

You know, re: the script, my screenwriting teacher said it's actually better to write the story as a novel, and then the rights can be purchased. Fine, but I was there to learn screenwriting.
 
i understand the perspective of wanting to write a novel. information is conveyed differently in novel form. it is the easy way out, as far as conveying information. screenwriting is tough, because it calls for extreme economics of your information.

in a screenplay, so much of the info pertaining to the story and development of the plot has to be conveyed indirectly.. (such as externalizing whats going on internally). we do this through the display of the character's personality, behaviors, actions...and subtext. because of it's nature, film makes a tough job for us to show what is going on inside the characters. and because most films don't have narrators telling us everything that is going on, we have to rely upon the careful revelation of information and exposition.
no one likes to have everything spelled out.

it is unwise for a teacher to say "make your script into a novel so that someone can purchase it and make it into the movie." novels have there own challenges to be dealt with. and they rarely follow the same structure of a film. there is no three act structure in a book, at least not presented in the same way as a film. it is another beast entirely.. and you are even less likely to have that movie made. adaptation is hard, because some other writer has to economize all that info you put in just because you couldnt find a way to do it in screenplay form.

so I understand your frustration. in your search for film schools and the decision to go or not, why not write to the schools and ask for a professor to describe the screenwriting program and how it fits into the rest of the curriciulum. it is your money. and while you are right in assuming that most schools focus too lightly on the importance of screenwriting... that is starting to change and alot of schools do care about storytelling.

I never held myself to highly as a writer. I actually used to rely on the idea of other people writing the content for the films I wanted to make. but now I am learning that it is possible for me to pursue this dream of writing. while screenwriting presents an amazing challenge, it does have it's benefits over other forms of written word...

screenwriting is focused! you dont need to dazzle a reader with beautiful prose. a screenplay is functional and economical. it is a blueprint. the bare bones essential that will inspire a wonderful film. you need only to choose the RIGHT words. focusing on your creative and interesting use of verbs, adjectives, and adverbs can really sharpen your story, and not unnecessarily weigh down the narrative.

I wont go into it, because there are books that can say it better than I can. The main goal is to trim down your use of descriptive words, be economical, and use a thesaurus to find the best "single" words best suited to your descriptions. DONT be repetitive with your word choices. in action sequences.. dont always rely on RUN and PUNCH to describe the action. read the script for ROCKY for more explanation.

not only is screenwriting meant to be focused and economical in use of descriptive words.. but also for the use of story elements to convey and deliver content, themes and purpose. movies aren't reality. they arent meant to simply caprture the world and people around us. they involve a heightened state of reality and character that is meant to convey a feeling, theme, or message.. or in most cases simply a purpose that the audience can identify with through stepping into the world of the film and it's people. the purpose is exemplified through the characters and their wants and desires, and the obstacles that keep them from immediately reaching there goals.

Walter Bernstien said it - "The audience empathize with a character not because they are in pain or oppressed, but because of what they are doing about it"

that brings me to my next point -
to paraphrase The Tools of Screenwriting - "the characters have to want something badly, have a hard time getting it, but yet it being possible to achieve. The story should be told for the maximum emotional effect and audience participation. and the story should come to a satisfactory ending, but not necessarily a happy one."

this sums up my most potent critism of todays multitude of independent filmmaking - that too many filmmakers will show a character in agony, despair, or unsatisfied with their situation, and think that it is in essence, dramatic. clearly it is not, simply because the character isnt doing anything about their situation besides sulking about it. it also reaches to all sorts of "drama". try writing about character's who arent just victims for a change. here is an interesting dynamic - what if there were a character who made their own problems and had to deal with them?

that a character is simply shouting or showing extreme behavior should constitute drama, bah! that's ridiculous!!! that does not make a film interesting. and the audience doesnt care about how horrible some anonymous and undefined (or cliched) character's life is, they only care what they are doing about it.

Who is this character, what is this huge mess they are in, what do they want, why do they want it, and what are they going to do about it?

I know that I am slightly off track, but it is still for a point. Screenwriting has the dignity in that it is a really difficult form of literature to master, but does not require that the author have acute skills in crafting masterful harvard educated prose...

you simply need a good idea, an insight into character and motivation, the time tested principles of dramatic storytelling, to know how to build your scenes into a dynamic sequence that moves that story forward, an effective way of putting it all together, and a lot of hard work because it takes hard work to put all of those into practice.

but the starting point and perspective for your journey through storytelling is out there in a few good books.

"a good story well told"

I hope I have been helpful.
Just keep trucking away at that dream.

another good book for reading is "Psychology for Screenwriters" .. forgot the author though.
 
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