DJI Zenmuse X7 with Super 35 Sensor

[optitek]

People said the same thing "they've standardized on a new camera mount!" when the Inspire 1 came out. (I'm talking about the actual camera-to-bird interface)

Guess what? When the Inspire 2 came out, they standardized again! :|

They can't even keep their camera mounts standard between their lines when they're physically compatible (the M200 will mount the X7, but appears to be incompatible electronically... the Osmo handle uses the same physical connector as the Inspire 1, but you can't take an Osmo camera--either the X3 or the X3 Zoom--and mount it to an Inspire 1). My point is that DJI doesn't have a stellar track record of "standardizing" on nearly anything... so it's not risk-free to invest $4300 in their new "cinema" DL-mount glass.

I'd also guess the resale value on the DL glass is going to be horrible, so getting your investment back OUT is going to be somewhat difficult.

Olympus doesn't own Micro-4/3 btw... it's an open standard. Which is why you can get m43 lenses from several brands and both Olympus and Panasonic make cameras in the mount (as does JVC).

On a side note, I'm not really sure what the move to Super 35 really buys. Over the X5S the X7 gets you:

- 1.2 more stops of dynamic range
- 0.8 "K" more resolution
- Slightly better low-light (maybe?)

I know... you're gonna say "better DOF control" but you'd be wrong... because the X5S uses m43 lenses that are normally between f/1.7 and f/2.0 and the DL mount lenses are all f/2.8 the effective DoF control is actually the same or worse.

Let's take the DL-mount 16mm f/2.8 and Olympus 12mm f/2.0 since they're both 24mm equivalent lenses and assume we're focusing at 100 feet:

16mm f/2.8 on Super 35 near limit is 13.5' and the far limit is infinite
12mm f/2.0 on m43 near limit is 13.6' and the far limit is infinite

On the tele end, let's take the 50mm f/2.8 DL and the Olympus 45mm f/1.8. Since the DL mount has nothing as long as the 45mm, we're just using the most tele one from each mount.

50mm f/2.8 on Super 35 near limit is 60.5' and the far limit is 289.1' for a total DoF of 228.7'
45mm f/1.8 on m43 near limit is 75.5' and the far limit is 148.2' for a total DoF of 72.8'

How about right around 50mm effective... the 35mm DL mount vs. the Olympus 25mm f/1.8:

35mm f/2.8 on Super 35 42.8' far limit infinite
25mm f/1.8 on m43 near limit 43.4' far limit infinite

Camera mounts are probably being improved- there is no standard so they can do whatever they want. Nothing wrong with improving upon the first gen of a non standard feature.
M43 mount is just for that- M43 so it doesn't make any sense to use it on APSC size chip -it will just create more confusion- not to mention that most existing lenses won't work. And most buyer would scream bloody murder about that.
Sony e-mount protocols are next to impossible to obtain from Sony so they would have to reverse engineer them. Very time consuming and without certain outcome not to mention illegal. Sony would have a good whip on DJI with that.
The only real choice is own standard- so they did it....
It remains to be seen how committed they are to it, too early to tell and certainly would not invest too much in that right now- unless one has paying job that would use it- than it is a no brainer- the rental house way....;-)

 

[jb.]

Camera mounts are probably being improved- there is no standard so they can do whatever they want. Nothing wrong with improving upon the first gen of a non standard feature.

Except when the Inspire 1 came out one of the things they harped on is that this standard camera mount was going to make it a modular system moving forward.. so you could take your investment in cameras forward onto better airframes and vice-versa. That lasted exactly ONE generation. That's my whole point here.

M43 mount is just for that- M43 so it doesn't make any sense to use it on APSC size chip -it will just create more confusion- not to mention that most existing lenses won't work. And most buyer would scream bloody murder about that.

m43 would have been a poor choice for a S35 sensor, I agree. Though it is technically possible (the JVC LS300 has an m43 mount over a S35 sensor).

Sony e-mount protocols are next to impossible to obtain from Sony so they would have to reverse engineer them. Very time consuming and without certain outcome not to mention illegal. Sony would have a good whip on DJI with that.

You mean like they're "having a good whip" on Rokinon, Tamron, Sigma, Mitakon, Tokina, Zeiss, Voightlander, Commlite, and Metabones? Oh wait.....

All of those manufacturers have Sony E-Mount glass or electronic-capable adapters for E-mount.

It remains to be seen how committed they are to it, too early to tell and certainly would not invest too much in that right now- unless one has paying job that would use it- than it is a no brainer- the rental house way....;-)

Sure. If you have a specific need and can justify it with paying jobs, have at it... but know that your investment in DJI stuff is largely throw-away. They change mounts and protocols all the time which means every generation you're rebuying everything from media to lenses to whole cameras.

They've certainly figured out forced obsolescence.

Of course, this was all based on the theoretical Osmo handle for the Inspire 2 series cameras... which still doesn't exist after being soft-announced during their Inspire 2 introduction.

 

[optitek]

Except when the Inspire 1 came out one of the things they harped on is that this standard camera mount was going to make it a modular system moving forward.. so you could take your investment in cameras forward onto better airframes and vice-versa. That lasted exactly ONE generation. That's my whole point here.



m43 would have been a poor choice for a S35 sensor, I agree. Though it is technically possible (the JVC LS300 has an m43 mount over a S35 sensor).



You mean like they're "having a good whip" on Rokinon, Tamron, Sigma, Mitakon, Tokina, Zeiss, Voightlander, Commlite, and Metabones? Oh wait.....

All of those manufacturers have Sony E-Mount glass or electronic-capable adapters for E-mount.



Sure. If you have a specific need and can justify it with paying jobs, have at it... but know that your investment in DJI stuff is largely throw-away. They change mounts and protocols all the time which means every generation you're rebuying everything from media to lenses to whole cameras.

They've certainly figured out forced obsolescence.

Of course, this was all based on the theoretical Osmo handle for the Inspire 2 series cameras... which still doesn't exist after being soft-announced during their Inspire 2 introduction.

For all we know the lens manufacturers could have a licence from Sony- it is theoritically available. No matter what the processors built into the gimbal or drone body have to be updated- may as well update the mount while they are at it- these are still early days - it's not like they have 20 years of camera legacy to be compatible with like Canon or Nikon lenses do. Just FYI Canon EF mount servo lenses are NOT compatible with still canon camera bodies- so much for backwards compatibility standards... And that's from Canon with 30+ years EF mount legacy and 100,000,000 lenses sold.... Don't see anyone screaming about that haha

 

[indiawilds]

For all we know the lens manufacturers could have a licence from Sony- it is theoritically available. No matter what the processors built into the gimbal or drone body have to be updated- may as well update the mount while they are at it- these are still early days - it's not like they have 20 years of camera legacy to be compatible with like Canon or Nikon lenses do. Just FYI Canon EF mount servo lenses are NOT compatible with still canon camera bodies- so much for backwards compatibility standards... And that's from Canon with 30+ years ef legacy and 100,000,000 lenses sold.... Don't see anyone screaming about that haha

Show me a Canon still camera body with S-35 sensor.

 

[optitek]

S35=apsc

S35=apsc

Show me a Canon still camera body with S-35 sensor.

Same dimensions for all practical purposes. There are dozens APSC sensor Canons....

 

[jb.]

I really hope you understand the difference between adding certain functionality (power pins for the servo in this case) to an existing backwards-compatible lens mount to support a TINY number of specialized lenses... and creating an entire lens mount from scratch that's compatible with exactly NOTHING except four new f/2.8 prime lenses.

And the difference between Canon... who's retained EF lens mount compatibility with VERY VERY few exceptions for THIRTY YEARS... and DJI who couldn't even keep a camera mount going for ONE PRODUCT REFRESH.

I'd trust Canon when they say "we had to do this because we needed more power for the servo lenses" far more than I'd trust DJI in the same situation.

 

[optitek]

Again- they really did not have a choice. I wouldn't use another manufacturers standard and be dependent on their mercy when they decide to flip one bit and all lenses will be scrapped.
Again- this is very early in the development and if they feel they can make improvements to their system the ime to do that is now- not in 5-10 years... This is from manufacturers POV...

 

[jb.]

Of course they had a choice.

Just like they had a choice when it came to the Inspire 1 -> Inspire 2 camera mount. Or making the Osmo's "X3 Zoom" (which is really just a black "Z3") compatible with the Inspire 1. Or making an Inspire 2 cam compatible mount for their Matrice 600 hex or Osmo. Or making their Z30 camera compatible with the Inspire 1 (it's the same physical mount). Or using the same SSD system for both the X5R and X5S (with the possibility of faster SSDs if needed like we have faster SD cards).

DJI is the king of forced obsolescence and has been nearly from the start. I'm not sure why you're so convinced the tiger's gonna change it's stripes this time.

Also... a $10k investment in something you yourself admit is "very early in the development" is almost never a wise move unless you have very deep pockets. Especially with a company that seems to not mind (and in fact seems very eager) to change things to break compatibility between generations and even across their product line within the same generation.

This is getting really boring going back and forth with you, so this'll be the last post from me on the subject unless it moves in a different direction.

 

[Steven Abrams]

You mean like they're "having a good whip" on Rokinon, Tamron, Sigma, Mitakon, Tokina, Zeiss, Voightlander, Commlite, and Metabones? Oh wait.....

All of those manufacturers have Sony E-Mount glass or electronic-capable adapters for E-mount..

But what cameras besides Sony have the mount? They don't license for cameras, only lenses and adaptors. Ask them and find out.

 

[jb.]

But what cameras besides Sony have the mount? They don't license for cameras, only lenses and adaptors. Ask them and find out.

Pretty sure Metabones, Commlite and Rokinon didn't license jackety-s*%t.

Besides, who said this thing needed to be E-mount?

Also, Hasselblad Lunar (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1134591-REG/hasselblad_1100181_lunar_camera_black.html). If only DJI and Hasselblad were somehow related so the relationship to Sony was already there with precedent on co-branded cameras. If only.

All I'm saying is that maybe, just maybe, it's a good idea to think a bit before plunking down $10k into a brand new ecosystem created by a company that has a track record of obsoleting their own gear every other Thursday.

But hey, to each their own.

 

[optitek]

OK I get it: you are upset because you feel they abandoned the system you bought from them with your hard earned money. You are doing what you can to warn others and damage DJI reputation for what you feel is harm done to you. That's fair.
They do however have a remedy. It's called price. Nobody can get close to them in the value for the money. And now they've upped the game again. The camera manufacturers should take notice if they haven't yet ...;-)

 

[jb.]

Heh.

I’ve owned nearly every DJI drone save the S1000, Matrice 600 and the Matrice 200 starting with the original Phantom. Before there even was a DJI gimbal for the GoPro.

I’ve also owned a lot of their non drone products. Ronin, Ronin M, a few Osmos, the follow focus system...

I have both an Inspire 1 and Inspire 2. I’ve owned every camera for both except the Z30 and the thermals.

I’m EXTREMELY well-versed in DJI products and don’t really harbor any ill will for them as a company. I am very cautious with investing in their products that use proprietary interfaces, however, because they change interfaces like most people change underwear.

Oh, and their customer support is criminally bad. It's easy to have cheap pricing if you don't really have to support your products after purchase. I learned that lesson a long time ago the hard way. Buy from a local dealer. Always. Because DJI itself is practically useless if you have an issue and you need the muscle of a dealer behind you when they decide to deny your warranty claims for some weird reason or no reason at all.

Also, they've told me repeated times that their "accessories" don't carry any warranty at all. I took that to mean things like lens caps and the like... but that policy also extends to the 15mm lens they sell in a kit with the X5. That's an accessory. Hopefully that's _not_ the case with the DL lenses, but you never know.

What most people don't realize about DJI when they're looking at specs is they were founded as a Chinese hobby/toy company and there's a lot of that culture and way of doing business that's still present even as they move squarely into the "real money" realm of cinema cameras and lenses. Most people are fine with little or no support when they're dealing with their $600 Phantom 1 that they like to fly in their backyard for shits and giggles. When it comes to gear I'm going to stake my reputation on? I'd make sure you have at least two of everything you use from DJI that you'd consider even close to essential.

 

[cpreston]

I agree with jbregar on most everything. If you know that you can make money and recoup your investment on a dji product in less than a year, their products can be useful. There are a couple of traps, though. Never buy a product with the expectation that a needed accessory will be released. Do not buy a product directly from DJI due to the customer service issue. Do not buy a camera product unless you have tested the footage and the editing pipeline yourself and are happy with the workflow and image. Do not preorder a product or purchase a product before there are multiple reports that the firmware is fixed. DJI uses their customers to beta test their equipment.

From my experience, DJI has incredible mechanical programming expertise. Their camera tech, however, is really embarrassing. Hopefully they have brought in some new expertise so that the X7 isn't a huge talent. The Hasselbad purchase is a good sign.

To a certain extent, buying from DJI is a gamble. There is no guarantee that the product will function the way you need it to, but it is cheaper than any of the competition. Personally, I have no problem buying something like an Osmo, but I can't justify the gamble on something like an X7 unless there is a good years worth of great customer reports that there are no mechanical or firmware issues. After a year, though, DJI will have made the X7 obsolete with a new product release.

 

[jb.]

Their hardware engineering is awesome. They do all kinds of really amazing things on the hardware side.

Their software engineering is horrible. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Count yourself lucky if you've never had a DJI firmware update brick your drone or controller or whatever. It happens all the time. I'm very heavily involved in the drone community and there isn't anyone I know who's been doing it more than a year that hasn't cursed DJI firmware and the firmware update process at least once (usually every time).

Case in point... my Inspire 1 needed some updates, it'd been a while. I updated the bird first (like you're supposed to) and then moved on to updating the first (master) controller. It was pre-1.3 so it updated using the USB stick method. I brought it up to the final USB-installed version 1.4.something... worked without a hitch. Went into the GO app to bring it up to the latest... downloaded new firmware... clicked install... it never got off of 0% and then said "failed." Tried it with my other controller (camera op) and got the SAME result. Continued to fart with it like this for two days off and on. Tried downgrading firmware, tried upgrading firmware, hard reset the controller a zillion times. Used several different iOS and Android products including the DJI CrystalSky too. Spoke with their "support" via both chat and phone 4-5 times. Spoke with my dealer a few times and he wanted me to bring it in (he's 1.5 hours away)... set an appointment the next day to do so. How'd I finally fix it?

I don't f'ing know! That's the best part!

I hard reset the master controller one time and hooked it up to the GO app to install firmware. It thought it was the controller for a P3 Professional. Figuring I had nothing left to lose, I told it to install the P3 firmware. It did. Then I hard reset it again and now it knew it was an Inspire controller but it was essentially firmware bricked... did I want to upgrade the firmware? Sure!! It updated without a hitch and I had to re-bind it to my Inspire 1.

I tried the same procedure with the second controller. No dice. Never did get it to let me brick it with the P3 firmware. Finally borrowed my buddy's iPhone SE he uses as a screen for his Mavic, NOW the slave controller wants to update. I do the update (with I1 firmware) and it's bricked. I do a hard reset, hook it back up to my iPhone, let it update again and we're back in business.

This is what you get with DJI firmware.

Could you even IMAGINE the complete and utter s*%tstorm there'd be if the Canon C300's firmware update process was this frustrating? Then when you contacted Canon, they could barely speak English and didn't really offer you much help?

So, yeah... DJI stuff is cheap and often good... but taking it on a pro job is like playing Russian roulette with your reputation... which is why I never leave the house for a drone job without at least two of their drones and I don't do firmware updates unless I have a full week to troubleshoot after the fact.

They're also super predatory in the drone market and are well known for using their huge market share to push out competition. This is one of the reasons they really have no viable competition, especially at the Inspire level.

They also screw their dealers every chance they can get.

But they're literally the only viable game in town for a lot of this stuff until you get into the big birds (Alta 6 and 8 or other heavy-lifters).

Oh... and final thing. Their camera tech (as cpreston said above) isn't all that great. I too hope the X7 is improved, but the initial sample vids from it aren't encouraging. The biggest issue with DJI cameras is they absolutely HATE green foliage. It turns into mush. It's been this way since their FIRST decent camera on the Phantom 2 Vision Plus. It's continued through the P3 Pro, P4, P4 Pro, Mavic Pro, Inspire 1 X3, Inspire 1 X5, Inspire 2 X5S/X4S... You can deal with it and still get good stuff, but it makes me a little ill every time I pixel peep my footage. I was hoping the X7 would fix this, but it really doesn't... at least not in the stuff I've seen.

 

[markoconnell]

Some great comments here on DJI! People new to drones should definitely read through these.