directing question

C

c.g._eads

Veteran
When you're directing someone and are doing a bunch of angles, and the actors just aren't doing it the way you want in the wide takes, but then you figure out later, when you're in close-ups, the direction to give them to have them do it the way you want, and that new performance is quite different from the earlier performance, are you screwed? Because when you cut it later, you're not going to be able to cut from the wide to the close since those performances are so different.

This question comes about because I'm watching Stealth (yes, insert joke here) and Rob Cohen is shooting this one dialogue scene from like 50 different angles, and this actor's performance is just spot on matching from every single angle, and I'm thinking "that **** has got to be hard."

i guess what i'm asking is, once your'e on the set, do seasoned directors use the wide take as their template, and not stray from it from then on, so that all the perfromances match? Or, if they figure something new out halfway through the coverage, do they change it anyway, hoping to figure it out in editing? Or do they go back and do the wide takes again, with the new performance?
 
If the whole performance is different, then I don't see much way around it, but if parts of it match then you just cut on the matching parts (make sense?).
 
I had to deal with this a bit on my short. And I knew going in that it would be a concern so when I auditioned the actors, I tested them on this (among other things). It paid off.
 
After they had suffient time to read the sides they were given, we discussed their interpretation of the character. Once we had an agreed upon approach, they played the scene that I told them to play. If they were able to repeat the performance (I did an average of 5 repeats with each one) and the level of performance was to my liking, they got on the short list.
 
c.g._eads said:
Gen, let's just assume that the scene calls for a lot of angles.

yaq, how did you test them?
Click to expand...

If you have lots of angles I think it's assumed that you won't stay on the master very much. You'd be amazed how different the master can be from the inserts and no one will notice.

As a rule pro actors will deliver the close stuff different just because of the read-ability of the distance. What reads in the wide, reads too big in the close. I tend to use masters to maybe set geography and then that's it.

You have nailed one of the biggest issues with using non pro talent (not meant as a dig) but that there is so much technical associated with acting.

I never worry so much about looking for a non-actor to be able to replicate the same thing over and over. I look for someone who can do it as small as possible, that's the hardest part of acting. less, less, and then even less. Non-actors don't realize what will read, or how small something can be and still read.

Good luck

Cheers,
Chris
 
I guess I can offer a specific instance here as well. As an example:

Actor is reading a book and another actor is seated to their left. In the first part of the conversation, the actor that is reading does not look up. When he does look up, the actor emotes some frustration. With the actor that I cast, he gave a small sigh and cleared his throat before turning to the other actor to speak.

Once they turn their head, the shot changes from that master 2 shot to OTS shots. So the actor that I cast was very consistant in their pacing of the scene as well as the use of the sigh and their clearing of their throat. And these were specific performance elements that I was paying attention to once I understood how they wanted to play the scene.

Other actors had different takes on this but again, the little things that they would do - body language and pacing were payed close attention to so that I could ensure I was getting consistant repeatable performances.
 
You usually use a wide as the establishing shot, most don't cut back unless you want to distance the action between characters or add new eliments once setup. You should try and keep the action the same throughout otherwise causing headache for editors. I'm writing something on the matter for the directing section...will post soon.
J.P.
 
I would just like to second a point made above, that there is a whole hell of a lot you can get away with when you punch into the singles. If you've cut it, shown it to someone who is not insanely film savvy, and they don't notice it, I would freak too much. If you're really a perfectionist, just keep shooting until they do what you want. If you can't cause your producer is breathing down your neck, just get some solid B-Roll so you can cut around your actors straying from their performance. Good luck!
 
If you can afford it, get a good script supervisor/continuity person. This one person could save directors and editors more headaches than just about anyone else on the set! (I beleive this to the point that I give continuity "cut" rights on the set to a certain degree.)
 
If you don't have tons of cameras like John Woo to shoot all the angles at the same time, and if the actors do not deliver the same performance on each take, think about shooting cutaway shots when you're on the set. If the actors are too different between shots then use a cutaways.
 
Knock Out Films said:
If you have lots of angles I think it's assumed that you won't stay on the master very much. You'd be amazed how different the master can be from the inserts and no one will notice.

As a rule pro actors will deliver the close stuff different just because of the read-ability of the distance. What reads in the wide, reads too big in the close. I tend to use masters to maybe set geography and then that's it.

You have nailed one of the biggest issues with using non pro talent (not meant as a dig) but that there is so much technical associated with acting.

I never worry so much about looking for a non-actor to be able to replicate the same thing over and over. I look for someone who can do it as small as possible, that's the hardest part of acting. less, less, and then even less. Non-actors don't realize what will read, or how small something can be and still read.

Good luck, CHRIS QUOTE....WELL SAID ,I TOTALLY AGREE K.O. THATS WHAT I TRY TO DO EVERY TIME AS AN ACTOR AND TRY TO CONVEY IT TO THE OTHER ACTORS WITHOUT BEING A KNOW IT ALL..ESPECIALLY WHEN THEY'RE MESSING WITH MY PROFORMANCE
Click to expand...
 
I don't think I explained myself very well. I'm not concerned with continuity in movements, I'm concerned with continuity in performance tone. If your actors give one kind of performance (aka very angry) through the first 3 angles, then either you realize or they figure out, a better performance, which they then use for the final 3 angles (aka "happier"). Now as a director, you know later on that you *will* need those first 3 angles when editing. So what do you do? do you go back and shoot those first 3 angles, cut around what you already have, or piss yourself?

I know that directors like to have their actors "try it this way" or "try it that way" when they're shooting. I just don't understand how they can be doing all this experimenting through different angles, since the performance will be all over the place. Or do they know that ahead of time and do something like

ANGLE 1 - TAKE 1 - MAD, TAKE 2 - NEUTRAL, TAKE 3 - HAPPY
ANGLE 2 - TAKE 1 - MAD, TAKE 2 - NEUTRAL, TAKE 3 - HAPPY

... so they have all three options on every angle when they edit later? Or do they plan the general performance ahead of time, and then do very slight deviations on-set?

I'm just thinking how much that must suck, as an actor, if you're already into the 4th angle of a particular scene, and you figure out a way to play it way better, you can't, because you've, essentially, locked yourself into a performance.
 
rehearsals,set blocking and the script stick to the script, it's a drag when you get someone who is trying to do their own story (acting) and messing with your story
 
Short answer -- if your scene has changed drastically in tone and arc then, yes that may be a problem.

Long Answer -- I teach acting for camera and its the actors job to make it match from master, to medium shots, to closeups, to EXCU, etc. A pro actor should know when they took the watch out of their pocket and do it then each time

BUT ... when you get to closeups and extreme closeups its the actors job to do it different every time so you have options in the editing room / so that it remains fresh and honest -- while still taking their watch out at the same time.

Now if your sceme has changed from a quiet conversation to hisytrionic shouting match from master to closeup, or something that extreme -- that's a problem.

Its your job to get everyone on the same page while you are doing those master shots. The arc of the scene should be clear even though the actors are saving just a little something for their closeups - unless of course you are shooting all in medium or in one take then of course they bring it all then.

If the tone of the scene does change drastically from master to closeup then you may want to:
A) shoot the master again
B) get some additional coverage -- like cutaways of their hands fidgeting or rearanging the salt and pepper shakers, or ducks in the pond where they are talking, or another good trick is to shoot their backs for one take -- that way you can cut in whatever dialogue in whatever tone you want there

What can you do if you didn't do any of the above on set?

Well ... use your establishing master and get to closeups early and play the rest of the scene in closeups. You can also sometimes fake the cutaways as pickups -- so if it's two gals chatting at dinner over a white table cloth -- then set up a white table cloth, put to gal friends in the actors' costumes, and have them toy with their food, trace the rim of a wine glass, etc. while you film closeups of their hands, then you can cut to that too to cover awkward tonal shifts or lack of continuity.
 
No problem ... probably goes without saying but I should mention that of course you want to ultimately make it look like cutting to the extreme closeup of the hand fidgeting with the pencil is a brilliant story telling choice when it may really just be damage control :)
 
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