direct to HVX200 or double system?

C

c3kings

Well-known member
Dear All,

I have a feeling that someone will yell at me not doing my search. Or, soemone may say that it has been discussed before. However, I did try to search before I posted. Maybe, my way to search is not good enough, so I miss something Anyway, if anyone feels annoyed by my post, I am sorry in advance.

As I was doing my search in this audio forum, I realized that some fellow forum-mates suggested to do the recording directly to the P2 card or DV tape, and the result would be as good as doing in another recorder, like Marantz, Tascam or Sound Devices.

In fact, I was talking to a re-recordist, and he said that to me, "well, as the spec of the camera says the camera has 48HZ and 16 bit, and your DAT (at that time, I was using old Tascam DAT) also has the same spec, the sound recorded in your DV tape will be just as good as seperately in your DAT machine.

I am just telling what exactly was said between the re-recordist and me, but I don't mean to direct your attention to the difference between DAT and hard-disk/CF card recorders (it has been discussed in another thread), and I know nowdays recorder can have 24 bits or even more. Also, I realize that double system can have better sound picking-up condition as the sound recorder is seperated from the camera.

What I really want to know is if the sound quality recorded in double system is superior to just going directly to HVX200, of course, provided that the sound is picked up equally well in both situations.

Thanks a lot.

King
 
King,

It really depends on your technical requirements for the project. We do reality and documentary. I don't have a preference but for what the project mandates. Single-system is inherently easier not so much for what you have to do in the field but for what you don't have to do in post. Locking picture is greaty simplified.

If you have a boom and a lav or two, I'd seriously consider mixing it down into the camera in the field.

Doing the work I do, or working on an Altman film (which nobody is doing anymore... RIP Bob) it is common to have to record multiple tracks (not channels) of audio simultaneously. I recently did a TLC show with two eight-track Devas recording 16 distinct real-time channels. All of the cameras (HDV) were jammed to master clocks and post is looking really good - picture lock seemingly hasn't been an issue even for the Sony Z1Us which don't take a jam.

As far as quality goes, I'd defer to an engineer. I'm a DP who only has to deal with audio at a peripheral level. I'll say that I've done both single and double system with minimal stress and seen both go on to broadcast and theatrical distribution without too much ADR - for whatever that's worth.

Most important is remembering the simple things like grabbing room tone for every scenario and protecting your takes with a good sound operator who will call it as he sees it. It's a pain to have to pull another take because the recording heard something off-camera, but much more inconvenient to have to clean it up in post.

e
 
overlandfilms said:
King,

It really depends on your technical requirements for the project. We do reality and documentary. I don't have a preference but for what the project mandates. Single-system is inherently easier not so much for what you have to do in the field but for what you don't have to do in post. Locking picture is greaty simplified.

If you have a boom and a lav or two, I'd seriously consider mixing it down into the camera in the field.

Doing the work I do, or working on an Altman film (which nobody is doing anymore... RIP Bob) it is common to have to record multiple tracks (not channels) of audio simultaneously. I recently did a TLC show with two eight-track Devas recording 16 distinct real-time channels. All of the cameras (HDV) were jammed to master clocks and post is looking really good - picture lock seemingly hasn't been an issue even for the Sony Z1Us which don't take a jam.

As far as quality goes, I'd defer to an engineer. I'm a DP who only has to deal with audio at a peripheral level. I'll say that I've done both single and double system with minimal stress and seen both go on to broadcast and theatrical distribution without too much ADR - for whatever that's worth.

Most important is remembering the simple things like grabbing room tone for every scenario and protecting your takes with a good sound operator who will call it as he sees it. It's a pain to have to pull another take because the recording heard something off-camera, but much more inconvenient to have to clean it up in post.

e
Click to expand...

Dear e,
Thank you for your response.
By the way, I am interested in what you are talking about "jam to master clock." How does it work? Does it work for HVX200? Do I need to have some other things besides the recorder? Also, can I just use a Tascam instead of a Devas to acheive the same result?
Thanks a lot.
King
 
You have a SMPTE time-code generator either built into your recording device or feeding your recorder. One or the other would be the "master clock" - simply the primary timekeeping device for code purposes. All of the peripherals on the set are hooked into this master clock which instantly calibrates their internal time-code to match.

In short, you cannot, to my knowledge jam an HVX200. You can sync from one camera to another, but I'm not aware of a firewire adapter which would allow the typical BNC jamming cable to work with the HVX. You can ballpark it within a second or less on the HVX like any other prosumer camera by mashing buttons as you watch the master clock.

Even when we do so, we also take footage of an open TC slate at regular intervals. Shooting reality, which is often 63 unbroken minutes at a time, we don't have the luxury of holding the roll and re-sync.

Film-style would likely be a marker at the top or bottom of each take.

e
 
It's really two things that I think should be dealt here.

To do double-system you will need a sound-man, so you will really be benefited by two separate things: the separate audio and the sound person.

Having someone paying special attention to your audio problems will warrant that that part of your project will be covered.

Video cameras were not designed to pay special attention to your audio, and the cameraman probaly will not.

So if your budget allow it, use double system and a sound person.
 
to double or not double you need a soundman
the separate audio doent give you any benefit if they are in the same quality
the only need where you cant hook to camera /wild lines and ambient when your recording device already in other location /separate tracking when you dont have enouth or just luxury which almost no one pay you for,
video cameras these days stand in the same of dat recorders few years ago if you running line or digital ins ( 900r/blue ray)
so if your budget allow you better sound person with good gear and straight to your hvx
by the way Carlos i did films for cinema with beta sp in my life , 6 tracks ( 2 on bvw 600and another 4 on bvw 50 parallel , sounded grate with my 2 sqns in front and good microphones
 
There's more to quality audio recording than just the # of bits or the sample rate. For example, HDV is 48kHz/16-bit too, but it's compressed by a ratio of 4:1, whereas DV and HVX audio is uncompressed.

But more important is the quality of the audio hardware in the camera. If your cam has lousy/noisy pre-amps and records hissy sound, it doesn't matter that it's 48kHz or 16-bit, it's still going to sound bad.

The HVX and DVX have some of the best audio processing hardware in a camera in that price range, but it's still not on par with a dedicated QUALITY mixer like a Sound Devices 442. Use that to mix your audio and output line-level signal, and then record it on your HVX or DVX, and the sound quality will be better than if you'd just run the mics straight into the camera at mic level.

Enough of a difference for you to care about? That's up to you to answer.
 
overlandfilms said:
You have a SMPTE time-code generator either built into your recording device or feeding your recorder. One or the other would be the "master clock" - simply the primary timekeeping device for code purposes. All of the peripherals on the set are hooked into this master clock which instantly calibrates their internal time-code to match.

In short, you cannot, to my knowledge jam an HVX200. You can sync from one camera to another, but I'm not aware of a firewire adapter which would allow the typical BNC jamming cable to work with the HVX. You can ballpark it within a second or less on the HVX like any other prosumer camera by mashing buttons as you watch the master clock.

Even when we do so, we also take footage of an open TC slate at regular intervals. Shooting reality, which is often 63 unbroken minutes at a time, we don't have the luxury of holding the roll and re-sync.

Film-style would likely be a marker at the top or bottom of each take.

e
Click to expand...

Dear e,

It sounds very complicated thing to me. Maybe, the way to make me understand better is to list out the things that I don't understand.

1./ I am having a Sound Devices catalogue next to me, and it says to 702T and 744T have "time code master clock on set." Does it mean that they can generate TC?

2./ When you said, "All of the peripherals on the set are hooked into this master clock," does it mean that all the equipment will be linked by cables all the time during the shoot? (At this moment, my situation is quite simple, only one HVX200 and a sound recorder.)

3./ Do you mean that though HVX200 could not jam the TC, a firewire to BNC adapter can be used on HVX200 for jamming the TC? Actually, what is "jamming?" How to "jam?"

4./ What is "ballpark?'

I am sorry to have so many questions. Maybe, can you, or anyone, kindly direct me to any link or book to learn more about this matter first?

Thanks a lot.

King
 
Oleg 2 said:
to double or not double you need a soundman
the separate audio doent give you any benefit if they are in the same quality
the only need where you cant hook to camera /wild lines and ambient when your recording device already in other location /separate tracking when you dont have enouth or just luxury which almost no one pay you for,
video cameras these days stand in the same of dat recorders few years ago if you running line or digital ins ( 900r/blue ray)

so if your budget allow you better sound person with good gear and straight to your hvx
Click to expand...

Agreed with that. Even if headphone monitoring is poor and level setting can be a pain. You definitely need an external mixer/preamp, with limiters and good metering, to use all the bits you have.

by the way Carlos i did films for cinema with beta sp in my life , 6 tracks ( 2 on bvw 600and another 4 on bvw 50 parallel , sounded grate with my 2 sqns in front and good microphones
Click to expand...

Beta's audio was awful, as it used Dolby C to improve on the noise. You definitely needed double-system with them.

I am waiting on my Z1 to arrive so I can do some tests using a Zoom H4 CF recorder to record double-system at the same time as the camera. Then I can avoid the compressed HDV audio.
 
King,

Your questions are good ones, not often addressed here.

For timecode, you ultimately want to establish one device as your master for TC. The SD recorders (with a T at the end) all can act as your master. I use the Tascam HD-P2 recorder, which does not have a TC out option, so I use my TC slate (Denecke) as the master. This is a bit risky, because I do not always control access to the slate (some AC usually slates), but I have never had a problem. A piece of gaffer tape over the on-off switch is all it takes.

Questions 2 and 3 are roughly the same. Jamming is connecting your TC master to peripheral devices that can accept TC. For example, when I want to set the TC on my recorder, I connect a cable between the slate and the recorder, and the TC gets set (jammed) into the recorder. Most pro (not prosumer like the DVX/HVX) cameras also have the ability to be jammed. The DVX and the HVX do not have any way to be jammed. Denecke and others make a TC generator that can be connected to an audio channel which can then be used to assist in synching audio in post. But, with the HVX/DVX, the most common way to synch audio in post is via the slate/clap.

There is a lot more to discuss relative to TC, but I think this will give you the basics. As far as "ballpark" goes, how fast can you set the time on the camera to match the moving time on the slate. That's your ballpark. One other option you have, when using a Denecke TC slate is to set the camera time to 00:58:30 and then turn the slate on. (That is the TC the Denecke slate starts at). That will get you pretty close, but still not perfect. Jamming is the only way to get it "perfect".

Phil
 
Barry_Green said:
There's more to quality audio recording than just the # of bits or the sample rate. For example, HDV is 48kHz/16-bit too, but it's compressed by a ratio of 4:1, whereas DV and HVX audio is uncompressed.

But more important is the quality of the audio hardware in the camera. If your cam has lousy/noisy pre-amps and records hissy sound, it doesn't matter that it's 48kHz or 16-bit, it's still going to sound bad.

The HVX and DVX have some of the best audio processing hardware in a camera in that price range, but it's still not on par with a dedicated QUALITY mixer like a Sound Devices 442. Use that to mix your audio and output line-level signal, and then record it on your HVX or DVX, and the sound quality will be better than if you'd just run the mics straight into the camera at mic level.

Enough of a difference for you to care about? That's up to you to answer.
Click to expand...

Dear Barry,

Thank you for your reply. Your answer is very close to what I want to know. However, may I ask even further?

In your opinions, do you think that we still need a dedicated recorder, for example, Sound Devices 702T, or just the HVX200 itself to record the sound after the sound man fine tuning the sound from a 442 mixer?

In other words, with a 422 mixer, can HVX200 completely substitue 702T and have the same good sound quality that 702T can offer?

(Let's skip such situations like running too long cable or recording wild sound without camera first)

I hope you will not feel that I am too extreme, for I am just really curious about your experts' experience and opinions.

Thanks.

King
 
c3kings said:
Dear e,

It sounds very complicated thing to me. Maybe, the way to make me understand better is to list out the things that I don't understand.

1./ I am having a Sound Devices catalogue next to me, and it says to 702T and 744T have "time code master clock on set." Does it mean that they can generate TC?

2./ When you said, "All of the peripherals on the set are hooked into this master clock," does it mean that all the equipment will be linked by cables all the time during the shoot? (At this moment, my situation is quite simple, only one HVX200 and a sound recorder.)

3./ Do you mean that though HVX200 could not jam the TC, a firewire to BNC adapter can be used on HVX200 for jamming the TC? Actually, what is "jamming?" How to "jam?"

4./ What is "ballpark?'

I am sorry to have so many questions. Maybe, can you, or anyone, kindly direct me to any link or book to learn more about this matter first?

Thanks a lot.

King
Click to expand...

1. Those both would act as your master clock - simply dial in your camera framerate (for HD it'd be either 23.98 for 24 frame or 29.97 for 60i) and then decide if you want it to run time of day continuously (e.g., the timecode clock is set to 10:47am if that's what time it really is, then it just runs and runs) or record run or so on.

I'm not smart enough and there isn't enough room here to explain regen and all of the other nuances of timecode, but a little research outside of the forum might help you. The simple answer is: those decks are both capable of acting as the master clock.

2. The camera would be set to receive external timecode (within the menus) and then be connected prior to photography to receive the timecode. Once the camera takes the data, it will run, more or less accurately for a few hours to the same time as the master clock. It is a literally a five second operation - no buttons to press. Simply hook them up, check to make sure they're running the same numbers and disconnect.

If you're shooting single system (camera picture and sound all in-camera), simply set your timecode at the beginning of your shooting day (several methods available here - some users have their own preferences) and go.

3. While those decks feature a IEEE 1394 output "... for high-speed data transfer to computers", I don't have firsthand knowledge of whether it would carry the timecode information to the camera, or whether the camera is set up to take it. Someone else might have experience here - if they do, I'd also like to know!

4. As I said, ballpark accuracy (when you cannot connect the camera via wire to your master clock generator) is usually a second or a half-second off of the master clock simply because you can't press the button in a frame-accurate fashion.

Hope this helps!

e
 
Carlos_E._Martinez said:
Agreed with that. Even if headphone monitoring is poor and level setting can be a pain. You definitely need an external mixer/preamp, with limiters and good metering, to use all the bits you have.



Beta's audio was awful, as it used Dolby C to improve on the noise. You definitely needed double-system with them.

I am waiting on my Z1 to arrive so I can do some tests using a Zoom H4 CF recorder to record double-system at the same time as the camera. Then I can avoid the compressed HDV audio.
Click to expand...

did you ever heard afm tracks properly recorded :-)
no i didnt , i did it ansd not only that i recorded live music preformers which where mixed live to 4 afm tracks . its not the recorder its the mixer who make it sound grate :-)

h-4 - for dialog you can go dyrectly to z-1 if you work for tv , no ones would know , how you will have to slate every take , what a drag .
 
c3kings said:
In your opinions, do you think that we still need a dedicated recorder, for example, Sound Devices 702T, or just the HVX200 itself to record the sound after the sound man fine tuning the sound from a 442 mixer?
Click to expand...
You may be quite happy with the results. Or you may not. Only your ears can judge.

However, I would say that there are lots of jobs being done where the audio is recorded directly into the camera (no mixer) and people seem content. Going through a good (and it must be good!) mixer can improve the quality. Recording to an external dedicated 24-bit recorder will also improve the quality (and also the hassle factor, as now you'll have to sync up sound manually). So where do you draw the line at "good enough"? Only you can answer that.
 
I agree with Oleg that one should have a dedicated sound mixer regardless of single or double system. Typical for us is a 302 with two or three channels mixed-down to line-level inputs 1 and 2.

If we're shooting controlled interviews where the camera operator can monitor audio in headphones and on the camera display, you might get by with acceptable results. Still, having a dedicated operator is almost always better - unless they're not monitoring the return and ruin your whole shoot.

Not that I've ever seen that happen.

e
 
ptalsky said:
King,

Your questions are good ones, not often addressed here.

For timecode, you ultimately want to establish one device as your master for TC. The SD recorders (with a T at the end) all can act as your master. I use the Tascam HD-P2 recorder, which does not have a TC out option, so I use my TC slate (Denecke) as the master. This is a bit risky, because I do not always control access to the slate (some AC usually slates), but I have never had a problem. A piece of gaffer tape over the on-off switch is all it takes.

Questions 2 and 3 are roughly the same. Jamming is connecting your TC master to peripheral devices that can accept TC. For example, when I want to set the TC on my recorder, I connect a cable between the slate and the recorder, and the TC gets set (jammed) into the recorder. Most pro (not prosumer like the DVX/HVX) cameras also have the ability to be jammed. The DVX and the HVX do not have any way to be jammed. Denecke and others make a TC generator that can be connected to an audio channel which can then be used to assist in synching audio in post. But, with the HVX/DVX, the most common way to synch audio in post is via the slate/clap.

There is a lot more to discuss relative to TC, but I think this will give you the basics. As far as "ballpark" goes, how fast can you set the time on the camera to match the moving time on the slate. That's your ballpark. One other option you have, when using a Denecke TC slate is to set the camera time to 00:58:30 and then turn the slate on. (That is the TC the Denecke slate starts at). That will get you pretty close, but still not perfect. Jamming is the only way to get it "perfect".

Phil
Click to expand...

Dear Phil,

I really learn a lot from your post. Thank you very much!

If you don't mind to help me a little further, I have the following questions:

1./ What is AC?

2./ Would you mind telling me the approximate cost of a TC slate, if the price comes handy to you?

3./ When you are talking about "ballpark" or setting 00:58:30, are you saying something like counting 1 2 3 and turning on the camera and the slate at the same time?

Thanks again.

King
 
overlandfilms said:
1. Those both would act as your master clock - simply dial in your camera framerate (for HD it'd be either 23.98 for 24 frame or 29.97 for 60i) and then decide if you want it to run time of day continuously (e.g., the timecode clock is set to 10:47am if that's what time it really is, then it just runs and runs) or record run or so on.

I'm not smart enough and there isn't enough room here to explain regen and all of the other nuances of timecode, but a little research outside of the forum might help you. The simple answer is: those decks are both capable of acting as the master clock.

2. The camera would be set to receive external timecode (within the menus) and then be connected prior to photography to receive the timecode. Once the camera takes the data, it will run, more or less accurately for a few hours to the same time as the master clock. It is a literally a five second operation - no buttons to press. Simply hook them up, check to make sure they're running the same numbers and disconnect.

If you're shooting single system (camera picture and sound all in-camera), simply set your timecode at the beginning of your shooting day (several methods available here - some users have their own preferences) and go.

3. While those decks feature a IEEE 1394 output "... for high-speed data transfer to computers", I don't have firsthand knowledge of whether it would carry the timecode information to the camera, or whether the camera is set up to take it. Someone else might have experience here - if they do, I'd also like to know!

4. As I said, ballpark accuracy (when you cannot connect the camera via wire to your master clock generator) is usually a second or a half-second off of the master clock simply because you can't press the button in a frame-accurate fashion.

Hope this helps!

e
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot, e. It is a very clear explanation!!
 
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