Digital Bolex night footage

[pitstain]

I think it has more to do with marketing of the company. First of all, by now DB is on the same track as RED Scarlet, which is basically an endless delay. Second is the footage itself- if you watch GoPro footage reel, it makes you want to run out and buy the camera. It's supposed to be a camera for film makers- go and do a film, instead of releasing a bunch of shots. The hype build up, the hypster marketing, but the footage and the use of the footage doesn't simply live up to the hype. The other thing is this "in-crowd" mentality- that is really turning me off. The same way I would never buy RED, due to fanatical behavior of some of the board members. For me a camera is just a tool, it doesn't up my status, it doesn't make me a better film maker. The footage released looked so-so, and most definitely is not backed up by some great creativity.

The problem with this - is the fact that you're comparing footage from companies that had a finished camera that was tested, fixed, tested, fixed etc. What DB is doing is letting the consumer in to the process. Letting them peek behind the curtain to see the development. They are doing it differently. You may not like that, but you at least need to acknowledge it and understand it before you dismiss them because of it.

Did you know that the night footage was the first footage the camera ever took at night? Did you know that the Salton Sea footage was the first footage that the camera ever took outside? Did you know that both shoots were done with cameras that have already been improved upon?

I know I know I know - "then don't release any footage until it's finished so I won't get pissed" I get it. They just want to do it differently. People either get that or they don't.

 

[Andrius Simutis]

Did you know that the night footage was the first footage the camera ever took at night? Did you know that the Salton Sea footage was the first footage that the camera ever took outside? Did you know that both shoots were done with cameras that have already been improved upon?

No. I didn't know that at first. Most people won't even know that now. I'm glad they're releasing the shots, but Digital Bolex either needs to not release these tests or make it clear what the shots are. Otherwise everyone is going to assume that they are no different than the shots we see from all the other cameras out there. Even cameras that are 99.8% finished and in production will have a lot of notices that this is shot on a beta version and not final production camera.

 

[David W. Jones]

It would really behoove them to hire a marketing person that knows marketing.

 

[Razz16mm]

I think it has more to do with marketing of the company. First of all, by now DB is on the same track as RED Scarlet, which is basically an endless delay. Second is the footage itself- if you watch GoPro footage reel, it makes you want to run out and buy the camera. It's supposed to be a camera for film makers- go and do a film, instead of releasing a bunch of shots. The hype build up, the hypster marketing, but the footage and the use of the footage doesn't simply live up to the hype. The other thing is this "in-crowd" mentality- that is really turning me off. The same way I would never buy RED, due to fanatical behavior of some of the board members. For me a camera is just a tool, it doesn't up my status, it doesn't make me a better film maker. The footage released looked so-so, and most definitely is not backed up by some great creativity.

Yeah, I agree with you too. One of the guys from Digital Bolex, and I'm paraphrasing here, said that it was purely test shots and that they're sharing the steps they're taking in the development of the camera and its color science. That's nice, but these days the bar is set pretty high and anything that carries your logo will be expected to be a finished marketing piece. They need to stop releasing complete videos until the camera is dialed in. If it's really just test footage, then drop it as a couple shots with no music and clearly label it as test footage.

So you guys prefer to judge cameras based on over produced megabuck Madison Avenue agency hype.
I actually prefer working with original footage from a camera shot under real world conditions more like those a low budget indie filmmaker will actually encounter. It is what I can do with the images the camera records that matters most to me. Since getting acquainted with the original Red 1 and the creative image potential that Bayer raw formats now offer for motion as well as stills I'm over shooting video cameras.

Seven years after the original RED 1 was introduced the number of cameras designed to record 2k digital cinema or higher resolution Bayer raw images as their native format is far fewer than 10. Of those that exist there are only 3 priced under $10k for a practical ready to shoot package. Only one is a true 16mm/s16mm format camera designed for use with premium quality modern or vintage cinema lenses as a practical replacement for a 16mm film camera. I've been waiting for a camera like this for 30 years.

In all that time not one major camera maker has ever made an affordable prosumer price range camera that isn't compromised for image quality due to inferior video codecs though they are loaded with lots of over hyped market buzz features that I personally have no interest in.

I've viewed original raw footage samples from the D16 that I have processed myself on a $60k DLP cinema projector that we've had in house for a client demo for the last couple of weeks. I've compared it to S-log original AVC footage samples from an FS700 along with raw and prores filmlog samples from a BMCC and Ikonoskop samples, also graded by me. That tells me all I need to know about image quality potential.

So if some of us seem overly obsessed with odd ball contrarian cameras like the Ikonoskop and the Digital Bolex, it is because for us there is no real competition.

 

[novoluc]

They need to stop releasing complete videos until the camera is dialed in.

Thinking pretty much the same thing. Most everything I saw from them needs so much work in post that it is not very attractive to me. And why do they call this long subway segment a night scene? It's underground, it will have the same lighting 24/7.
Wondering if their stream of postings from a long-way-to-be-finished camera is not counter-productive...

L.

 

[novoluc]

So you guys prefer to judge cameras based on over produced megabuck Madison Avenue agency hype.
[...] So if some of us seem overly obsessed with odd ball contrarian cameras like the Ikonoskop and the Digital Bolex, it is because for us there is no real competition.

So what are you saying? That this camera is aimed at a very small niche of aficionados with special needs? Who can "judge" a camera on a stream of snippets made by an unfinished product?

Also, if these guys make public some tests they are doing, they understand (I hope) that they are calling for comments, and that the reactions of the viewers may not be all favorable, based on their own needs and expectations.

L.

 

[Razz16mm]

So what are you saying? That this camera is aimed at a very small niche of aficionados with special needs? Who can "judge" a camera on a stream of snippets made by an unfinished product?

Also, if these guys make public some tests they are doing, they understand (I hope) that they are calling for comments, and that the reactions of the viewers may not be all favorable, based on their own needs and expectations.

L.

This camera is designed for and aimed at film makers who would rather be shooting 16mm film if they had the means to practically do so, many of whom still own 16mm cameras, lenses and accessories. That is the intended market. Yes it is a niche market camera .

 

[novoluc]

This camera is designed for and aimed at film makers who would rather be shooting 16mm film if they had the means to practically do so

Well, that's the best definition of the product and the targeted potential buyers I read. Thank you.

L.

 

[pitstain]

This camera is designed for and aimed at film makers who would rather be shooting 16mm film if they had the means to practically do so, many of whom still own 16mm cameras, lenses and accessories. That is the intended market. Yes it is a niche market camera .

This exactly describes me and my interest in the d16. I wanted a camera where the camera didn't become outdated. I can continue to take advantage of processing and grading software evolution to keep the d16 useful and relevant for years. The same way a film camera with stock wouldn't be outdated.

I just want to figure out iris, focus, shutter angle and then shoot. The d16 is built around that.

 

[Andrius Simutis]

So you guys prefer to judge cameras based on over produced megabuck Madison Avenue agency hype.

Hello Straw Man, nice to meet you.
What people are saying is that Digital Bolex is not being savvy to the realities of today's camera market and it's going to hurt them. I like what they're doing with the camera and hope they get it dialed in and into production soon. Heck, I might even buy one. But what they're doing right now is counter productive. If they want to release some ungraded shots in the middle of the color science tweaking process, great! But just make sure that it's clear that's what they're doing. Throwing half baked shots with music and a Digital Bolex logo gives the impression that this is as close to "megabuck Madison Avenue" as this camera can get. This isn't a slam on the camera, or the concept, just on their decision to release footage without any explanation of where in the process they are. If they were smarter about the marketing, beyond getting rights to use the Bolex name which was rather smart, they'd be involving a community of filmmakers into an "advisory panel" and sharing this with them, then releasing some ungraded shots with titles like "early sneak peak test footage" and inviting feedback to get people invested in the finished product. It's a minor quibble really. I like that they're being open about the process at this point, just not so much that they're not being clear about it so people don't develop early negative impressions of this camera's abilities. I believe what you're saying about the quality when graded, but the other thousands of viewers have only seen what's on Vimeo with no explanation of what they're looking at. What do you think their opinion is? In order for you to be able to buy a Digital Bolex (and hopefully future models) the company needs to be successful, and to do that they have to get more than one customer to like it.

 

[Razz16mm]

Hello Straw Man, nice to meet you.
What people are saying is that Digital Bolex is not being savvy to the realities of today's camera market and it's going to hurt them. I like what they're doing with the camera and hope they get it dialed in and into production soon. Heck, I might even buy one. But what they're doing right now is counter productive. If they want to release some ungraded shots in the middle of the color science tweaking process, great! But just make sure that it's clear that's what they're doing. Throwing half baked shots with music and a Digital Bolex logo gives the impression that this is as close to "megabuck Madison Avenue" as this camera can get. This isn't a slam on the camera, or the concept, just on their decision to release footage without any explanation of where in the process they are. If they were smarter about the marketing, beyond getting rights to use the Bolex name which was rather smart, they'd be involving a community of filmmakers into an "advisory panel" and sharing this with them, then releasing some ungraded shots with titles like "early sneak peak test footage" and inviting feedback to get people invested in the finished product. It's a minor quibble really. I like that they're being open about the process at this point, just not so much that they're not being clear about it so people don't develop early negative impressions of this camera's abilities. I believe what you're saying about the quality when graded, but the other thousands of viewers have only seen what's on Vimeo with no explanation of what they're looking at. What do you think their opinion is? In order for you to be able to buy a Digital Bolex (and hopefully future models) the company needs to be successful, and to do that they have to get more than one customer to like it.

There is an advisory committee of us that have been actively participating in the development of the D16 through out the process. Many of us do have experience with 16mm film and Bolexes going back decades. Many feature and performance upgrades have come out of the discussions we have had. Though the core concept hasn't changed, the final product is a much different and better camera than it might have been otherwise.

 

[Robert Ruffo]

Looks great to me. Do you know what lenses they were using?

That looks great to you? Really? The highlight roll-off is some of the worst I have ever seen, and it suffers a whole lot from "blob bokeh". Noise is not very well controlled. Her freckles show skin rendition issues. I am very glad I don't have to shoot with this camera.

 

[underpressure]

Did you know that the night footage was the first footage the camera ever took at night? Did you know that the Salton Sea footage was the first footage that the camera ever took outside? Did you know that both shoots were done with cameras that have already been improved upon?

We currently have 2 betas, "Derek" (silver body, dob: August) and "Thor" (black body, dob: July). Thor is made of old parts with new firmware, Derek is made of new and more efficient parts. We rotate them in and out of LA as the engineers need them and to upgrade firmware as it becomes functional, so all of our shoots have been done on cameras that are continually improved upon. That said, most everything we've released has been shot on Thor, which is mentioned in the descriptions of all our Vimeo videos. (That will change in the next few weeks.)

Thor has been a busy little guy: he shot the July stills, the Strip & Razor test footage, the Salton Sea landscapes, the Color Chart/motorcycle/Sunset footage (we planned to release this almost 2 weeks ago, but we took everyone's advice and gave it to a great color grader, who wasn't able to meet our deadline, c'est la vie), a music video for the band Mock Sun, 2 test days with 4 LA based DPs, and this week a narrative short. Thor went back to Canada this morning when Derek arrived, as Derek will be our workhorse from now on, which is good because Thor needs a firmware update yesterday.

The problem with grading and posting clips vs finished pieces lies in the time it takes to get something nicely polished in grading before it goes up. It's not a matter of IF we can get "real" DPs to shoot on the camera, it's a matter of WHEN can they get something to us to post. There's some good stuff coming up this week from the DP shoots last weekend. But if it's only us shooting, or the DP can't take the time to do their own post right away, there are only 2 of us in the office that can edit and grade, and we have a lot of work to do to get the camera out asap besides releasing test footage. When we've tried to be efficient and go to outside editors and graders, they can't turn it around in time. So either we can wait weeks to release footage, or we can release as we shoot it, relatively ungraded, or grading quickly ourselves.

Either outcome is tricky. We've released graded footage and people complain about the grade; we've released flat footage and people complain that it's dull. I prefer releasing final polished stuff, but that means footage releases are few and far between. And why sit on footage for weeks when we can show it to people? Joe prefers to give people what we have when we have it. And many people find the tests exciting, and the responses have been more positive with each release.

We have been going outside with the cam since August--problem is in the Strip & Razor test that the outside footage you didn't see was the luxurious vista of a Home Depot parking lot, which I didn't want to post because obvious, so I cut all but that first walking shot. Salton Sea was our third outdoor shoot, but was not meant to be the "first" outdoor footage released. The D16 at night was not meant to be the first night footage released--we shot night/sunset scenes of Downtown LA that we haven't posted. But sometimes that's just the way it goes down and you gotta roll with the punches.