difference between tungsten, hmi, fluorecent??

J

J5 squared

Well-known member
So i've been trying to learn about lighting and i've been reading all the articles in the sticky and crusing these forms but i have a question that i haven't seen an answer too. Whats the real difference between the different kinds of lighting, tungsten, him, etc. etc.? like is there a certain time that ones correct to use over another? Or is it just different prices and qualities of light? Should you not mix lighting setups, ie, use a tungsten key and a fluorecent fill?
 
Tungsten and HMIs are hard light. Fluorescents are soft light.

Tungsten lights are 3200K. HMIs are daylight balanced. Fluorescents can be either.

HMIs and Fluorescents are both much more efficient than tungsten (watts per lumen).

A tungsten key and a fluorescent fill would work really well. Play around and you'll find that it's really helpful to have different types of fixtures in your kit. In exterior night scenes, you may have a tungsten key light and then use HMIs to give the scene that moonlit look (since they are daylight balanced, they'll look blue if you white balance to the 3200K tungsten key light).
 
HorseFilms said:
HMIs and Fluorescents are both much more efficient than tungsten (watts per lumen).
Click to expand...
That should read "lumens per watt." Sorry, it was early.:) HMIs and Fluorescents will yield roughly 4 times the light output of a tungsten fixture of the same wattage.

Yardsale said:
Great explanation as always. I wanted to know myself.
Click to expand...

It's amazing what you learn if you hang out here long enough. :beer:
 
Also the fall off of Flours are greater than tungstens or HMIs. Flour & HMIs also require a ballast whereas most tungsten does not.

~Marque
 
Searching around to understand lighting better is making me learn little by little,
and that in turn is raising more and more questions. Especially about the lighing
jargon.

Is "fall off" the distance it takes a light to loose it's intensity?
Does greater fall off occur because the light is less focused?
Is a light that is less focused sometimes called a "soft light"?
Does a soft box then make the drop off of a light greater?

Does the following qualify as a start-up but versatile light kit?:

two of THESE
one of THESE
one of THESE
one EYE LIGHT (nomething cheap and small)
two or three CHINA BALLS (400W output, dimmable)
Orange gels (complete sets of full and half)
 
Why is that HMI so cheap? It makes me wonder. Also, why not throw in some smaller tungsten directional units? they're cheap and you could use them for lighting up backgrouds, sets and rim/edge lights. (eg: arri 150, 350 and 650 fresnels)
 
I'd like to keep it low-consumption if possible. I found some great deals on fresnells, and I'd love to have that controll, but with all the experimentation that I need to do at first I thought I'd get HMI-type lights and fluorecents... my budget is 2000 possibly 2300

I'd love to include one of these Arri 300s but with a full and a half scrim and bulb and barndoors plus a c-stand you are talking some serious cash for 300W that consumes 300W...
 
HorseFilms said:
Tungsten and HMIs are hard light. Fluorescents are soft light.
Click to expand...

While generally true, not all "Tungsten" sources are hard. Consider things like a Mole Softlite or a Zip, these are really soft sources often used to illuminate cycs.
 
USLatinContent said:
Searching around to understand lighting better is making me learn little by little,
and that in turn is raising more and more questions. Especially about the lighing
jargon.

Is "fall off" the distance it takes a light to loose it's intensity?
Does greater fall off occur because the light is less focused?
Is a light that is less focused sometimes called a "soft light"?
Does a soft box then make the drop off of a light greater?

Does the following qualify as a start-up but versatile light kit?:

two of THESE
one of THESE
one of THESE
one EYE LIGHT (nomething cheap and small)
two or three CHINA BALLS (400W output, dimmable)
Orange gels (complete sets of full and half)
Click to expand...


this seems too good to be true.

a gem, or another britek?
 
Tungsten is a metal filament inside the bulb that the electrons travel thru. Based on the resistance of the filament and the electoral voltage, the filament will get hot and give off light. The tungsten bulb can be put in a variety of different types of lamps allowing for hard light or soft light. Not all units are created equal. The lens and reflector play a major part in the output of a light. A halogen bulb will give you a color temperature of 3200 degrees Kelvin (orange or warm). A standard household light bulb will give you about 2800 degrees Kelvin (even warmer). A dimmer can be used with a tungsten bulbs. When the bulb is at 100% the color temp will be 3200 as the bulb gets dimmed the color temp lowers as well.

HMI bulbs are much like fluorescents in which the electrons travel thru a gas. The gas has a very high resistance, so a ballast is used to boost the voltage of the electrons to over 2000-3000 volts (if not more). Once the electrons jump thru the gas from the negative electrode to the positive electrode (called a strike or striking) the electrons can travel thru the gas at a much lower voltage, so the voltage drops significantly. In a HMI a few drops of mercury are used in the gas chamber. When the mercury gets hot and turns to gas it combines with other gas in the bulb and will glow at a color temperature of around 5500 degrees Kelvin (blue or cool). But this can vary; I have metered HMI at 10,000 degrees Kelvin. Mostly HMIs are between 5000 and 7000 degrees Kelvin. The color temperature of the bulb will change over its life time, getting green as it gets old. This is not so much an issue with video as it is with film. Film will see the color shift much easer than video will. Some HMIs are dimmable. The dimmer is built into the ballast. Do NOT plug a ballast into a dimmer of any kind. As opposed to tungsten when a HMI is dimmed the color temp raises. It can raise as much as 4 or 5 thousand degrees Kelvin. If you have full CTO or half CTO on the lamp and it’s dimmed, it’s like taking the gel off the lamp but still reducing the light intensity. I prefer using scrims or diffusion to reduce the intensity of lights as opposed to dimming. HMIs get hot, but not as hot as tungsten lights per watt. A tungsten lamp is about 80% hotter per watt than HMIs.

Florescent lights are basically the florescent lights you see almost everywhere. They strike very similarly to a HMI using a ballast because they are filled with a gas. They are not as bright compared to tungsten or HMIs but they are much much cooler to operate. They are very thin and long 2”x 9”, 15”, 2’, 4’, 6’, 8 they can be smaller than this as well.
By definition a soft light is a source of light that it close to the size of your subject or relatively close to the size of your subject. A standing 6’ person can be lit rather softly with a 4x4 florescent rigged vertically 5’ away. The closer the source the softer the light will be.
The bulbs come in a variety of color temps; 2900k, 3200k, 5500k, they are also manufactured not to have a green or magenta color to them. Some are made with color in mind; spike green or spike blue. Theses bulbs are special order that a few manufactures produce. Most consumer flos have a green color to them.
With the combination of temperature and their size, they can be put in tight places to add some illumination where a different light source would be to large and hot (i.e. in a cabinet or behind bottles on a bar, or in a elevator). They can also be used as key lights. Some companies like Kino Flo make housings that hold different numbers of bulbs. The combination of bulbs brings the overall output level up. They are great in very small rooms where a chimera just won’t fit. These fixtures can be mounted in a multitude of ways. Most Flos can’t be dimmed. Yet some can like the Diva light by Kino Flo. I have not used the Diva light very much. The people who do use them often love them. In my limited experience with them when they are dimmed they appear turn magenta again this is not such an issue with video as it would be with film. The divas are much brighter than standard flos.

I recommend getting the Set lighting technicians Handbook by Harry C. Box. Published by Focal Press. This book is very good for producers to read, as well as DP and lighting techs. It has little about the art of lighting, but a lot about the tools you need to light. I bring it on every scout.

USLatinContent said:
Searching around to understand lighting better is making me learn little by little,
and that in turn is raising more and more questions. Especially about the lighing
jargon.

Is "fall off" the distance it takes a light to loose it's intensity?
Click to expand...
Yes

USLatinContent said:
Does greater fall off occur because the light is less focused?
Click to expand...
No

USLatinContent said:
Is a light that is less focused sometimes called a "soft light"?
Click to expand...
I think the answer to your question is No. When we use the word focus It means to "aim".
A Source 4 leko is truely a focusable light. It has a lens that can make a sharp cut or pattern. The pattern can be be made soft by moving the barrel (lens). This is not really making a "soft light", but rather a soft pattern with the beam. Most fixtures do not have this ability.

USLatinContent said:
Does a soft box then make the drop off of a light greater?
Click to expand...
Drop off is when the amount of light gets reduced over a distance. The greater the distance the greater the dropoff will be, exponentionally. Yes, A soft box with a 1k will have a greater fall off than a 1k without a softbox. A soft box scatters the light in many directions so a 1k at 5 ' will have a greater stop than a 1k at 5 feet with a soft box. The amount of light hitting the 5' mark is less with diffusion. The diffrence being the softboxe's light goes in other directions.

-Charlie
(I was off today)
 
Last edited:
Wave of Light said:
I recommend getting the Set lighting technicians Handbook by Harry C. Box. Published by Focal Press. This book is very good for producers to read, as well as DP and lighting techs. It has little about the art of lighting, but a lot about the tools you need to light. I bring it on every scout.[/FONT]
Click to expand...
Really agree with you.
A really handy book for pros or even beginners (as me). It gives helpful tips about tools and lots of useful tables and diagrams that teach you about the way electricity works and the usage of different luminaries and gripology you may use on any production.
 
Got a used one from Amazon for $29 including shipping. Thanks!

I am recosidering my package after reading this and other threads, thanks!
I could do away with my Hollywood Camera Work DVD set to add $310 to my lighing budget and make it a $2310 package... I don't want to do this but I might have to if I am going to get a nice Fresnel...

I coul get:
one FS-110 + c-stand w/arm + egg-crate
one FS-220 + c-stand w/arm + egg-crate
one Arri 650 + full scrim + half scrim + barn doors + filter frame + 300W bulb + 650W bulb

and I'd be spending $2450 with the tape gales cans of air and extensions that I have to get... so I'd be working with 3000K fluorecents and one Fresnel 3200K light and I'd have a full set of 5600k tubes for the fluorecent lights for $100 plus shipping from coollights.biz

what's keeping me from this is the short life of the $25 bulbs for the fresnel, and also that I could use the DVDs for my jargon...
 
It is either that or keep everything as it is and only replace the Arri fresnel with:
ALZO 800 + honeycomb + softbox + barndoors for $488

So it would be about $50 less but I won't have to get the expensive bulbs all the time and I'll save on the power bill while I experiment every night for a month straight all night through and I am really broke after all of this.
 
get some used cheap tungsten units. They should be old, beat up, maroon in color and cheap. They should also just roll around in the back of yur car without concern. They're all over out there (L.A.)
 
FYI I went with the Alzo 800 but only because I big on a tungsten! weird turn of events...
I found a nice looking "Blue Line" on e-bay... they come in 650 and 1k flavors and they look just like silver and blue Arris, or almost like them, but very nicely built indeed from the pictures...

the 650 can hold a 300 500 and 650 bulb so I saw it for $180 or so and decided to bid $199... I won!
then... the guy that makes/sells then turned out to carry the Alzo line too... and he extended the savings of my bid to the Alzo 800 package! Great...
I got it with the soft box, barn doors, honey comb and a stand for CHEAP!!! cheaper than the web-site... so nice of him to still honor the bidding savings!

we'll thry that and see how it works, I read in other threads that they are quite good, and if they are what people say they are then for the price you can't beat it

I'll get china balls and such next
 
I know Mole occassioanally sells a lot of 1Ks or 2Ks off. There are quite a few places between LeBrea and Gower south of Sunset (near Mole). Ebay, Google or just drive around. I bought some things from a big place in Burbank but can't remember the name. Arri is in Burbank - if you give up looking for used.
 
No, not at all... I won't be looking for lights... next in line are the full line of Redrock items and a fast computer... however a nice little set of fresnels for cheap would always be welcome... what am I saying.... buying is the last think in my mind now... I am DONE! WEEEEEEE! Now I can actually work!
Tuesday is when the last package comes in, so tomorrow will be my last shopping day, going to FilmTools for expendables... that place is like a grocery store! I love it, LA is crazy... I though you were in MI?
 
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