Did I Screw Up or is Hindsight 20/20

ElementFilm

Active member
I completed cinematography for my first feature film using the DVX 100a in Scene File 6. I have a few questions that have me freaking out a bit as I'm in post.
1.) I used 'Squeeze' Mode instead of 'Letterbox' and here's why: I knew I needed to go widescreen and couldn't afford the 16x9 adapter.
So, all my research led me to believe that the 'Letterbox' mode just puts black bars on the top and bottom of the normal 4:3 (which you can add those in post anyway), so that seems stupid. But most importantly, you are then wasting part of the ccd to make the full image.
The 'Squeeze' mode, after "anamorphic" is applied in Final Cut Pro and the black bars are added has utilized the whole ccd of the cam, thus giving you the best looking image. Now, I am getting my a** kicked a little because some shots I'd really love to re-frame. Could I have re-framed with the letterbox mode, or are those black bars on top and bottom permanent? Or should I have gone just 4x3 normal and masked the monitors to give me guidelines? Is that image not as good as the Squeeze image? I just wanted to go for image quality overall and it seemed knowing that I was going widescreen this was the answer. What do you think, did I make the wrong choice? However, as an option I have noticed that you always shoot more than what shows up on any tv in final format (underscan...) This is not just looking at the "image safe area" but also when editing I'm hooked up to both a professional CRT and a consumer 14" tv. So I do have some room to move things around a bit (usually about 10-15 in the motion/center tab in final cut. Has anyone messed with pushing the image in (using "scale") and then being able to move around even more. How much image quality am I losing if I resize up to about 105%??

2.) This is the one that really, really, really has me freaking out. I shot this whole movie in one room. The way it looked by itself was terrible, skin tones, room colors, etc... Because of the nature of the film we wanted a warmer dirtier look, not this clean video look. So my cinematographer used a Coral 1 filter the whole film, which we all thought did look a lot better in context. But now, I'm seeing that the image is way way way too red. So, when I go to color correct and pull out the red, or even de-saturate the image, it seems I'm losing a lot of quality. I'm getting the pixelation all over the place. Is there something with the use of a filter like this that is causing all this quality loss? I mean, I shot the screen test just in some room without filters and it looks way way sharper. What's going on? Did this filter screw me? His explanation or rational at the time was that I could always pull it way back in post if I didn't like it. He even said that I could basically delete it in post by color correcting the coral 1 out (pulling lots of red and a bit of green and pushing blue), but again, did I kill my image sharpness and quality by doing this?? It just seems I don't even get clean lines.
 
As to #1: Using Letterbox would not have let you re-frame, either.

However...how about this? Would reframing the whole thing as 2.35:1 let you "fix" things to your liking, or are the parts you want emphasized in the frame completely missing?

Dan
 
small correction: letterbox and squeeze mode use almost the exact same amount of the CCD.. nether of them use the full CCD. squeeze mode basically take the letterbox image area. and stretches it taller to fill the frame. then it gets streched out horizontally when you display it at 1.2 pixel aspect.


and red is a DV killer color. basically, it screws the chroma sampling lot and can result in aliasing or pixelation. you can change the color in post, but it wont change the way it was originally compressed, so youl still have the jaggies. there are some filters/plugins to help correct the jaggies though. pending your NLE you might be able town it down some
 
2.35:1

2.35:1

Dan,
Good advice, and I've thought about that. Is there an easy way to do that besides masking my monitor in post, adjusting all the frames accordingly, then applying a 'crop' to the whole edited sequence (as opposed to croping every clip). I'm not familiar of any specific filters in FCP or After Effects that facilitate this.
Thanks,
Andrew
 
Then what's the point?

Then what's the point?

Finding out that both letterbox and squeeze don't utilize the whole ccd really p*sses me off tremendously. So why not add the option to apply '16x9 guidlines' like the XL-1 did? Then, we don't have to guesstimate with the gaffer tape on the external monitors. And I'm sure someone's already figured out a way, but what's the best method for applying that mask on the camera's LCD (and does this render my eyepiece useless for framing?).
I'm annoyed, if both Letterbox and Squeeze mode are not better than using the standard 4:3, framing for 16x9, then allowing me full control in post to re-frame, then 'what's the point?'
Why are these lame versions of widescreen even there?
 
It's better to letterbox in post for the reason you give, reframing.

You can get PDA screen protectors and place on your LCD. Set to letterbox mode and use a marker to mark the framelines. Use a grease pencil or wipeoff marker on your monitor.

Unless you really, really know you want the look of a color filter it's best to leave it off. Once you lose colors you can't get them back (especially on DV) but in post it's usually possible to re-create any basic color filter.
 
Like Scott says - put something over the display to make your 16:9 mask, and shoot full 4:3 frame. I put a piece of frosty Scotch tape with some marks on it, works just fine. Anything (semi)transparent will do.

Shooting letterbox is better than squeeze because you are exporting the cleanest image (squeeze is stretched vertically). But full-size 4:3 is the best for above reasons.

J.
 
Actually the reason for the squeeze mode is a good one, but does limit that reframing ability.

When you edit and either add black bars in post or in camera, then you've got a 4:3 image with bars. But, if you video in the squeeze mode you've actually got a 16:9 image. This way, when burned to DVD the DVD player will treat it like 16:9 and if you have a 4:3 TV the players will add the bars.
If you have a 16:9 TV (as I do) then it will NOT add them.

However, my TV (60" Sony LCD projector) has a zoom feature. This helps because some cheap DVD's actually encode as a 4:3 with black bars so that the DVD player adds black bars to the SIDES and the black bars on on the top. I hit zoom and it fills the screen.


SO, the squeeze DOES serve a purpose... but considering I think most 16:9 TVs have a similar zoom feature for just such a problem, it's not really that big a deal for what you lose (the ability to reframe in post)

Of course, the other option is to just shoot absolutely everything perfect the first time, or take about 50 shots of Tom Cruise walking through a door (ala Kubrick) But, since those options suck, I think I'll shoot in 4:3 for now and edit in post (Actually, I think the the letterbox mode is more worthless since you can crop in post and just put some bars on the top and bottom of the monitor... in fact watch some behind the scenes stuff on DVDs and you'll see a lot of directors do work that way (the monitor has little lines on it representing where the edge will be))
 
trekker,
Good call on the squeeze mode being treated as 16:9, I do like that.
And with it being treated as a 16x9 image in 23.98fps, that's the ideal format for a dvd with today's wide screen tv's.
I am highly considering going to 2.35:1, which does give me re-framing options after the anamorphic applied to the squeeze mode. I've always loved that aspect ratio, and you're in good company with it (seven, amelie, road to perdition, etc...) By the way, if you didn't know you can look up the aspect ratio of any movie on imdb.com! It's under technical details, which also allows you to see specifics on the camera package, film negative format, cinematography process, etc... Great tool.
And I'm learning here. For those like me that have always been confused on the whole letterbox vs. squeeze vs. 4:3 w/ masks (box'ing in post) vs. true 16.9. Christ they don't make it simple do they...
One thing I miss about my XL-1, maybe the only thing, was that it did offer 16x9 guidelines (like you see on monitors in behind the scenes dvd's). I loved it, and you could still frame in the eye piece. You didn't have to mask every monitor either, it transfered on the feed out of the cam.
Anyway, thanks to everyone for your feedback. Honestly, I'm less worried about my aspect ration as I am just killing myself over this filter issue. It's not that bad but for a perfectionist it's a hard lesson to learn to hard way (shot the whole movie with this damn filter...)
If anyone has any final suggestions for fixes on this issue of me losing clarity because of the coral 1 filter & the over-saturated reds, please -- don't hesitate to throw them out.
Thanks Again...
 
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