deciding what foley you need and what you don't?

Azmyth

Azmyth

Veteran
So I'm recording foley for my feature right now, and I made this elaborate spreadsheet listing every scene and every sound I thought I needed.

Now that I'm recording them, theres a few I listed that I'm not sure I need now.

My wife made a comment on one in particular where a character is sitting in class doodling. There's other people around him writing or jotting stuff down too. I originally recorded sounds of his pencil on the pad, but she said to her it sounded "Fake" and that you wouldn't be able to hear that noise unless the focus was strictly on his hand and what he was drawing.

a similar scenario I am stuck on now. A girl walks out of a house, taken from a medium/wide shot. She stops at the top of the steps and opens a pack of cigarettes, gets one out.. and lights it up.. would you be able to hear the "package opening?"?
 
The real question is not WOULD you hear it but do you WANT to hear it?
If you want to hear it there is your answer. Most things you hear in a final film Foley wise you'd never hear in real life
unless your ear was 2 inches from the object.
Do you want the audience to know the actor is opening the cigarettes? The sound will help. Do you want the audience to not pay attention
to the cigarettes? Then don't put it in.
There are no rules.
Personally in my own opinion I'd probably WANT to hear the cellophane tear off, the cardboard opening, the flick of the lighter, etc.
Unless of course there are other sounds that same moment that are where your want the audience's ears listening to.

(I won't say anything about the capitol F thing, I don't want to take the glory away from someone else)
 
Sound editing and sound mixing are two different things, you know? And take this with a grain of salt because I, like you, am not a sound expert. I'm a filmmaker who likes to dive in to all aspects of the process. So, I'd say that certainly there is a point where you can do too much, but it doesn't hurt to have the sound of the pencil and the sound of the cigarette package cut in, and then dialed back in the mix to an appropriate level. Sound design is a lot of work, but i think it's worth it. Listen to some professionally sound edited and mixed movies and I think you'll see just how exaggerated a lot of sounds are today. So yes, an objective reaction may be that it doesn't seem natural. But neither does having a score. Where is that music coming from? I mean, I don't know what kind of movie you're making but the sound can have a little personality in the same way the cinematography can. And i like movies with personality! :)
 
Anyway if you would make an "international" soundtrack (everything accept dialogues, also called M&E), I would say M&E&A because ambiences are not always effects....then you would need EVERY single sound.
Even if you wouldn't let it sound loud.

No sound = no sound = no sound... so that means no sound. And if there's no sound, you can't turn it louder.... But some small recorded sounds of people drinking, eating, writing, moving, walking, fighting, typing,... you always can mix it in. And to have the "it' sounds far away effect", it's done with EQ, reverb, leveling, mixing with other ambience sounds....
 
dre83 said:
Anyway if you would make an "international" soundtrack (everything accept dialogues, also called M&E), I would say M&E&A because ambiences are not always effects....then you would need EVERY single sound.
Even if you wouldn't let it sound loud.
Click to expand...

This is partially true. The people who decide whether your M&E will pass or be rejected listen to a mono version of the M&E in one speaker and listen to the dialog stem in the other speaker. If there is any production FX sound in the dialog stem that is not represented in the M&E then it will be rejected. The goal of the M&E is to as closely as possible replicate the film's soundtrack, not to re-interpret what sounds each market thinks should be heard in the film.
 
OK so let me get the Capitol F thing off my chest since it's a pet peeve. Foley is always capitalized because it's a persons name. Even when it's a verb it's still capitalized out of respect.

On to your question.

And we should also be clear here (though you have been using it correctly) Foley is on lf Foley if it's recorded live to picture for your film. Everything else is FX. It can get gray and squishy but technically if you reuse a bit of Foley shot for a different film then it magically becomes FX and not Foley.

Anyway the big budget answer is, as much as the budget allows, you Foley everything that FX doesn't cover.

In a low budget film you may have a lot of salvageable "practical FX" (non dialog sounds from production) and you usually don't have a lot of time or budget so you Foley what you really need to.

The more the better. Part of what makes a big budget film sound BIG budget is that everything is covered. EVERYTHING that is touched or moves makes a sound. It may be almost inaudible in the mix but it's covered. That kind of detail adds a lot of texture and richness to the sound track. A good example of a film that could have afforded to do some Foley and elected not to (or have FX fill in) is NINA TAKES A LOVER. The one that really stands out is a scene in a cafe where they are drinking coffee and eating and not a single utensil on plate sound is heard, no cup downs nothing. The audience wont probably "know" but they will feel the wrongness.

Ripple touched on the big rules of sound post. #1 forget what it really sounds like. What does it sound like in the world of the film? And #2 just as you only show the audience what you want them to see, only let them hear what you want them to hear.

An overriding rule is that what you want needs to be close or at least informed by what the audience wants. This gets a bit tricky if you think too much about it. For instance in a mystery the audience wants to know who done it. But what they really crave is the thrill of being surprised. So you do have to let them know who, but you have to do it in a way that takes them on that thrill ride and makes them earn it because that is what the really want.

In your two examples. With the drawing I would cover it and depending on the moment maybe only hear a bit in the mix. If you hear one or two pen scratches over the scene it will anchor the action in "reality". If what he is drawing is important in some way I want to hear more.

With the cigs, absolutely. If I can see her do it I want to hear it. Again unless it's important probably only a bit. A little crinkle, some pack pats, a lighter flick. If it's not important then you are only lingering i the whole thing to give the audience a break. In that case I want to hear more, because it is important by the fact you are lingering.

For a great sound opening that isn't brought up much watch the opening to "Once Upon A Time in America" - the long uncut version.
 
It's been covered fairly well already. Nothing in films is "real". Foley and sound FX are generally a lot bigger than real life. In fact, Foley and sound FX is not just "see it, hear it"; if done properly all of those sounds will convey emotional content to expand on the story and/or characters.

I personally take the "Michelangelo" approach. He supposedly said that the sculpture was already in the marble, he just took away the unneeded bits. I put in everything when it comes to Foley, sound FX and ambience and, at mix time, take away the unneeded bits. A great mix is one where everything is still present, if consciously not heard. The cigarette sequence may not be up front in the mix, not consciously heard, but if you pulled it completely out of the mix it would be missed. It's a very fine line, but then you understand why the best rerecording mixers command - and deserve - such high fees. And that's another reason to put everything in; it gives the rerecording mixer(s) and the director options.
 
unclebob6958 said:
I personally take the "Michelangelo" approach. He supposedly said that the sculpture was already in the marble, he just took away the unneeded bits. I put in everything when it comes to Foley, sound FX and ambience and, at mix time, take away the unneeded bits.
Click to expand...

This is my approach. Yes, you end up not needing a bunch of sounds, but the old adage is "better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it."

foley, foley, foley. Couldn't resist. :cheesy:
 
I put in everything in I can. It's better to get rid of a sound you don't need than to wish you had a sound you don't have.
 
Doc Bernard said:
foley, foley, foley. Couldn't resist. :cheesy:
Click to expand...

I'm assuming your just being a "bad boy" but...

For others.
If you don't capitalize and your working in a professional environment well it's like not taking your hat off in a church. Nobody is going to kill you but they know you don't belong and some will be offended and a bit angry at the lack of respect. Jack Foley is a bit of a demigod in film sound and sound professionals will notice. And film sound professionals can be very sensitive to slights. A few years ago there was some joke at the Oscars about sound being the category everyone goes to the kitchen to get a snack during, or something like that. Anyway the sound community was ready to kill. It was a seriously Over the Top reaction. I sure wouldn't want to be that guy and need some over and beyond work from the sound department.

On this forum and in low budget in general it probably doesn't matter much because 90% of the people don't really now what Foley is. But once you cross over to bigger budgets and real post scenarios be aware because you don't want to piss off the folks you need to work with.
 
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Scott, you always call me "Ripple" on here (it's an i not an L)
so I should be allowed to call you "noiz2" :P

kidding :D
 
Damn your right! Old eyesight and small computer screens. I'm going right out and getting one of those Brazil magnifiers.

You can call me anything but late to dinner.

I should probably stop using references that only a fraction of the people on this list are old enough to know...

Say goodnight Dick.
 
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