dealing with inexperienced director

Steve Laramie

Steve Laramie

Veteran
Any tips from you guys on dealing with an inexperienced director? I have a feeling this is going to get bad. This is his first film and its a feature which I knew from the get go was going to be trouble. But the price is right and I get a chance to DP a RED feature. I just want to find a way to not get my reputation damaged on this film. He calls me up once a day asking me to perform assistant director tasks not thinking anything of it. I have a air tight contract but I feel the only way I can help make sure the film happens is to breech it to a small extent. What can I do to not get screwed around on set?
 
On another forum I've often seen the line that there are two entry level jobs on a set: PA and director.

A lot of people are first timers, and a lot of people do great. Sometimes they need some direction. If you want to help the project succeed, just help give him pointers. Let him now that you've been on a number of sets and can help him out, but that going too far beyond your contractual obligations could change your day rate. But mostly realize you're both people working with the same basic goal, and you're getting paid regardless of how much advice you give. So it's up to you if you want to help the project do well or not.
 
All true!

Help him out, save his ass, make suggestions and be his adviser. If the work load, such as AD tasks are too much, simply tell him that these responsibilities may inhibit your ability to do your job and suggest getting an AD. On set, however, The MOST important thing you can do, is make your big suggestions and objections to the director in private. Do not help bring light to his newbieness in front of the other crew. It helps everyone keep faith in the leadership (despite it's weakness) and it helps the director keep his dignity and focus on his job.
 
This worries me. I face the same situation here if I'm out as director/dp/ or even boom mic operator or something.

Again, it seems when the infamous RED shows up, people will drop a lot else priority wise just for a chance to shoot with it.

I doubt anyone will sympathize or understand, I got SMASHED at reduser for this, but RED has a problem bigger than anything technical to do with the camera.

The image is a dream, the camera's really big, but...

It's so fabulous and ostentatious it takes away from everything else on the set, and people will make decisions they don't normally make if any other camera was involved. And if everyone on set starts buying oakleys the day after (which i've seen) then RED did its thing.

Do not decide to be involved in a project just to use a piece of gear.

I'm gonna get crucified for this but here goes. RED is a camera. It works like other cameras in the sense that you have to light up your scene, open up your iris, stick a lens on it, and hit a red roll button, amongst other functions other cameras serve.

I have been on about 4 RED shoots this year. They were all nightmares. And all involved professionals in the field here in the middle east.

Anyone I've met with the balls to accept RED as a camera usually go with something else if they have the choice, and the deciding factor for them is size and discretion in appearance, as we're in lebanon, and these are two things RED fails to offer miserably.

Also the taboo of criticizing RED, which is present IMO, and prevalent, doesn't help cinematography.

Ok you got your camera, whatchu gonna shoot? Ok you bought your audio studio and your AMS Neve strips, whatchu gonna play? You got your hasselblad, whatchu gonna photograph.

I think if Jack nicholson and Robert De niro (two famous ppl picked at random) perform a 30 min sequence shot on an iphone, people will watch it and possibly buy it, cause they're watching jack nicholson, not the iphone's rendition of blue for example.

If you really really wanna shoot RED, you'll be so upset if you manage to do no more than fill up holes in execution for other departments that should be on point.

If you have an initial doubt about this director, why are you working with him/her?

If they had another camera, would you be interested?

Nothing hurts more than to see gorgeous 4K files of stuff that may not work for some other reason. I have tons of r3d's from shoots that are just terrible outside of the whole image quality circle.

I only pray people get this and don't bash it.

Decide why you want to be in this project. If it's to shoot RED, I 80% guarantee you won't be happy IF you have inital experience-based doubt about your team.

The last deciding factor to get into a job should be the gear. I stand by this firmly, and RED keeps messing with this rule I try to uphold here.

It's too damn good.

I just read your first post again, and it seems you're really really not comfortable working with this crew. Do NOT work with ppl you don't like, cause it affects the project man.

If you decide to go on, you really have to be professional, and that amongst ppl you're doubting from the get go (I said from the get go har har) its gonna be hard.

I can't imagine working if I'm not lovin it. But then again I don't do it for the money. I'd rather be hungry and happy.

Just don't make decisions based on a brand name man. It's a cam. If anything get on a set to use an ASS cam and pull something off with that. The challenge in RED is not the technical aspect. I think. It's keeping your head on your shoulders and not changing your principles.

T
 
Please don't get me wrong, if you decide to go ont his project, everything everyone here said applies. Keep it discreet, and NEVER let em see you sweat.

Run this show, and don't feel like an unsung hero if you end up regulating everything and the director grabs the credit.

It's all stuff that applies beyond the technical aspect.

T
 
I've worked with many first time directors. You'll end up essentially co-directing. That's okay. If you save his ass he'll use you again if there is an again. But the AD thing? Don't let them take advantage of you because they skimped on the budget. It'll tire you out and detract from your good work.
Just bow out diplomatically.
 
greymog I have to say that it is pretty crazy that nobody can say RED without being accused of thinking quality will be great just because of a camera. I fully understand that it is just a tool and don't need to be reminded every time I bring it up. I appreciate your concern but you do have to realize that it is a resume milestone to DP a RED feature regardless. And the day rate is pretty nice as well so im not being hypnotized by the camera.

I guess my concern with helping him out is that I am going to be working 30 10 hour days in a row and I can barely go a week with working with the same person without wanting to start a fight ha. I am just afraid that if I start acting like an AD in the beginning it will start a trend and he will continually ask me to find locations and write out the shooting schedule/ call sheets (which I have already been doing) I don't mind doing these deeds now but when we are on set and I want to focus on cinematography but cant because nothing moves which brings me back to being an AD its going to get aggravating. I am always fine with giving personal input no matter what but after 20 days of non stop shooting and barely sleeping if he asks me to wrangle cast and crew and blame me if somebody doesn't show up I am going to lose it.

Also the crew is all mine. I have my key grip, gaffer, camera op, and sound guy its just the director I have not worked with.
 
All great advice.

Remember this though if the **** does hit the fan on the project.....Get Fired......never ever quit.

Peace

Rich
 
T,

Finally, someone who shares the viewpoint with me. I've seen RED shoots go astray because they wanted to shoot on RED, blew the budget, and that was it. Everyone wants RED. If the Genesis was as cost affordable as a RED, it would be the Genesis. Same with the Viper of F35 or Phantom.

That's the issue, RED is the economical solution to the big powerhouses. That's why you don't see indies going with an F35. Professionals, or money rich people use F35s, typically with crews knowing how they work. RED, everyone uses. And a lot of people don't understand the camera.

And Steve, don't take this the wrong way, but it is sounding as if you aren't helping your situation any with these projects. I've seen a few posts by you asking for advice on projects it doesn't sound like you are equipped to handle. A la the foreign language film you are editing for the money. This RED feature you are shooting for the camera when last week you asked how to learn the RED.

I've shot with RED, it isn't crazy hard to figure out, but get a DIT onboard with RED experience. Last time I used it, things went okay aside from it being a temperamental teenager of a camera. The fact it wouldn't playback for us and a few other issues. But we had an "Internal Fault" come up in one shot, and no one knew what to do. But our DIT was able to help us.

If you don't know the camera, get someone who does know the camera. Tell this guy to hire an AD who is experienced in scheduling.

I've worked with a number of directors, some decent, most bad. They need someone's help. And the AD is the one doing that. Tell him he needs an AD.

But in the end, you got yourself into the situation. The best way to not get screwed around is to sign on to projects for the right reasons. Here I think you need to tell him to get an experienced AD. And an AD who can schedule and direct. The true capacity of the AD. There are times when ADs have to step in to direct. It's a part of the job. This is what you need.

But really, it sounds like you do things for the wrong reasons. If you knew it was bad, you should have passed, especially if you are above the line. Tell your director (better yet, producer) that you need an AD here. And then work it out. Be diplomatic, do the best you can, in the end - if it looks bad - it's on you. If it looks good and the film sucks, it's on the director. If it never gets past principal photography, it's on the producer/director. Do your job the best you can and don't breach contract. When it's over, shake the guys hand, tell him it was a pleasure, and take off.

You're in it now. Make the best of it.
 
steadicamsteel said:
All great advice.

Remember this though if the shi* does hit the fan on the project.....Get Fired......never ever quit.

Peace

Rich
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Rich, I actually disagree a bit. Getting fired I think is worse than quitting. But quitting is equally bad. Because if the kid ankles or gets fired, that would be worse for his "reputation". I wouldn't hire a DP who was fired, especially when getting fired carries a terrible connotation, nor would I hire someone who quit right before cameras rolled. Because in this industry, people talk like crazy. I think he needs to push through and make the best out of it.

But I
 
Mattykins said:
Rich, I actually disagree a bit. Getting fired I think is worse than quitting. But quitting is equally bad. Because if the kid ankles or gets fired, that would be worse for his "reputation". I wouldn't hire a DP who was fired, especially when getting fired carries a terrible connotation, nor would I hire someone who quit right before cameras rolled. Because in this industry, people talk like crazy. I think he needs to push through and make the best out of it.

But I
Click to expand...

ASC Close-Up article quote from John Lindley, ASC:

ASC: WHAT IS THE BEST PROFESSIONAL ADVICE YOU'VE EVER RECEIVED?

JL: When I wanted to quit a miserable show, the Director, Virgil Vogel, said, 'Kid, never quit. If you have to leave, get fired. If you quit, it will always reflect on you.'
 
And getting fired doesn't reflect poorly on you? In my mind, I would be hesitant to hire someone who was fired from a production. You typically have to do something very wrong to get fired from a production that is underway. Virgil Vogel sees things differently.
 
I was on a show where I told a very experienced DP to just take the shot from the Hi-Hat. I was first AD and desperately trying to keep us on schedule. He was very cool he pulled me aside privately and said. I know you gotta keep set ups but don't tell me what camera support to use in front of my department.

I was trying to do my job, but stepped out of line. He was gracious and stepped in and gently reminded my of the ranks on a film set. He was cool I learned something and everyone wins. Talk to your director. Help him out. Do it privately as to not undermine him and he could really appreciate it.
 
Lairhair, I've made this point about 6 times in the past year, not in the past day. I don't know you guys personally, and was throwing my two cents in.

I think all of you at dvx user are the biggest chunk of positivity and creativity in my book. I don't surf this forum, I refer back to it as a collective authority.

I got a lot more out of dvx than i did at reduser.

I made more friends here, and ultimately i've learned tons.

So I'm not bashing anyone man. I believe strongly that all you DP's end of the day don't care about camera more than say, performance.

I'm young, I have much more to learn from you guys than you guys have to learn form me.

Yet, I think it's pretty crazy that everyone I've worked with here in lebanon and elsewhere did just that.

Movies that are very visually driven usually lack in other departments, not all the time of course, but often, based on my subjective perception, they do.

If you know it's just a tool, then I still don't see a reason why you would approach a project with one small upside, and several anticipated downsides.

Again, CV milestone or not, this cinderella/ugly sister vibe RED is accidentally creating is causing some strange reactions in the bigger six-figure crowd.

I have heard that several people are still not taking RED seriously, I don't think that has anything to do with its quality, but rather the vibe around it.

My disclaimers, I am not against what RED is doing, the way they set up their business is the number one reason I respect them as a force to be reckoned with. I've always believed that straight up quality, or bang for buck, trumps any business model or approach to compensate for cut costs.

The machine RED is , is fabulous. The pictures it takes are a dream. I've never had a problem with that.

Still, the users, on the forum, and on the field, over here, in syria, in dubai, and some i've met in france, really really push it.

I know several ppl here who won't look at RED as a CV milestone. They'd look at film as a CV milestone, cause film as a format, is unforgiving in the sense that you have to plan your every move.

The result is a piece of work where every nuance is deliberate, justified, and accounted for.

Just an example to prove some points, and separate some things on the table.

RED is the digital camera, in my opinion, that handles the most like film out of the rest. And again, based on meager experience, film has always been the fastest workflow. It's all planned, excruciatingly. Your magazines are loaded. Your actors are ready. It's a good kind of pressure. It's discipline in a field.

RED is an easy camera to use. The easiest. It's very straightforward. You can go online all the way in adobe, even with a mediocre computer, and just send it off to a nice monitor/finishing suite in the end. Nothing bad about it.

Every single piece of work has its aura. Aura defines the work, the product.

I'm no designer, but I wouldn't have made it look the way it does. It's very very aggresive.

And it's big.


Mattykins said, everyone uses RED. It is accessible. I don't believe personally it's that accessible to the indie filmmaker, it still is a fifty thousand dollar camera, and don't like the advertised 17,500 price for a body that doesn't do anything.

I'm sure if I shot with RED in little war torn third-place lebanon, you'll have tons of chances to use it.

It's a thousand dollars a day, and as i remember on REDuser last month or so there were tons of posts offering slasher rent prices on RED packages due to a bad economy in the world. The iron is hot.

Your crew is the most important thing behind the scenes man. If you have doubts, you won't come out with the experience. And really, end of the day, rate, CV, film or not, the experience makes you. I can make a ton of money here directing pop music videos, shooting them, animating graphics on top, I won't. I don't like it. And i'm dealing with the consequences.

Again, if you don't like the director, don't do it. RED or not. Day rate or not.

Also, if you're to be the DP, and AD work is asked of you, that's not very pro of your director. If he/she can't pay an AD extra, here's an idea, rent a cheaper camera, and pay an AD.

I really would bet that if RED wasn't involved, the planning would be completely different.

If you're in it, then you really have to stick with the guns, Hit the brook willard FAQ, ask David mullen a bunch of things, clear out your computer so you can begin installing and updating for about three days till r3d's run smoothly.

I love the 'get fired, don't ever quit'. So true. I've been made to puke blood because I walked out on a lot of messes. It's a small town here, I know how to work it, but in the US, for example, or any other viable economy, I totally agree, and wouldn't eer walk out on a commitment.

Some notes from RED shoots, with that said, also to reiterate that I'm not against RED.

It's a big camera, mounting is crazy, to get a birds-eye is a good forty minutes of putting the thing up. Plan shots out.

I found myself in this spot often; I need a silhouette, I'm DPing. I want a silhouette with a flare for an 'i'm gonna kick your ass walk'. I point me camera the right way, and have my visualized frame on the lcd, it looks good, I'm clipping but I don't care cause that's the shot I drew on paper the week before over and over again.

I find it counterproductive for the RED person with us to start dialing up feverishly in order to preserve all detail and basically kill the silhouette, add gradient NDs to get the sky, when in the end the burnt out shot we put in place is what we KNOW we're gonna do in post.

Again, RED's ability to give you room in post took away several hours off one shot.

It's heavy, handheld is tiring.

2K is funky. Still ahven't figured out why, light up like mad for it.

The biggest concern I had on RED shoots was the computer used to playback files. Every pc needed days to set up, maybe cause we're in lebanon and internet/mac accessibility is low, you can't get anything here. But have a laptop on board.

I'd go with CF over the hard drives, so as not to have too much footage to look at a time, I treat CF cards like film mags. Have several. three at least.

With that said, seriously, all reservations aside, put your issues on the table with your director in writing man.

And if it all works out, you'll have CRAZY images. crazy.

Post ramble: I am not bashing RED, I do not assume the DP's on this forum are hypnotized by the camera, but really, RED does hypnotize DP's. I'll stand by that all the way.

I really really hope this isn't misunderstood. If they make a scarlet that's ready to go out the box with an s35 sensor, that DOESN'T look like megatron, I'm in. If not its a 5DII and if I manage to money and it comes out, an ikonoskop a cam.

Discretion is one thing RED didn't manage to account for. And discretion is so bad ass.

Regardless, RED is by FAR, the number one business i've seen run in the world today. The best. Every other company making anything is so caught up in the corporate mechanism they can't even come close.

RED is misconstrued in the sense that you may not have to plan and you have more room to work on your shots later. I think this is wrong. For the camera that handles most like film, I think the discipline in preparation has to be up to that par. That is all I'm trying to say, and that's not what I've seen.

T
 
T,

Red is pretty accessible for indie film makers. Not to own per se, but to rent. And most productions do rent. Comparative to the slew of digital cinema systems, RED is the cheapest to rent. Discounting the HVX's with adapters and such. 1k a day is pretty good. That's 3k a week with a 3day week. An F35 will cost you almost 3k a day. Genesis, the same. F900's are about 1k, but they don't have a 35mm chipset.

So you are getting a camera that is comparable to a high end system for very cheap. Film costs more than a RED, typically. That's why I said indies all over the place are using them. And 50 - 80k for a digital cinema system is nothing compared to the 400 - 500k to get an F35 up and running with lenses and such.
 
Let me just clarify the RED situation. We are shooting RED because he needs to blow up to 35mm in order to sell it in India. We did numerous tests with the HVX and redrock and it really turned out crappy so he decided to just buckledown and shoot RED. Trust me I tried talking him out of blowing up to 35mm but he says its the only way distributors will buy in india.
 
Mattykins said:
T,

Red is pretty accessible for indie film makers. Not to own per se, but to rent. And most productions do rent. Comparative to the slew of digital cinema systems, RED is the cheapest to rent. Discounting the HVX's with adapters and such. 1k a day is pretty good. That's 3k a week with a 3day week. An F35 will cost you almost 3k a day. Genesis, the same. F900's are about 1k, but they don't have a 35mm chipset.

So you are getting a camera that is comparable to a high end system for very cheap. Film costs more than a RED, typically. That's why I said indies all over the place are using them. And 50 - 80k for a digital cinema system is nothing compared to the 400 - 500k to get an F35 up and running with lenses and such.
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This is misinformation on my part, I'm basing this on pricing here, RED's go out for 1000 a day for just body, amounting to about 1600 a day kitted out... other options max out at 500 with lights included. Arri 435's go out for 500.

A thousand dollars is a lot more here than it is in the US. I suppose the options in beirut are priced less than Red1. My mistake. It is however a very prestigious and high end thing here.

Lairhair, I understand you've talked to your director about the choice of medium, it seems you've made these points, again mate, my posts aren't directed at you man, its my thoughts on the topic.

I like writing what i think I can read it later and see if I'm brilliant or a doof.

Have you thought of 2-perf? heard/read about it several places the past six months, it slashes prices in half and you shoot straight to 2.35:1.

I've also heard of 2K and 1080 prints to film that were very successful, and am under the impression india would be cheaper than the rest, yet quality may not be the same.

I have never prepared for a film out from digital source, so I'm not well knowledged.

It's hours later, and I am compelled to apologize for the really long post on my RED thoughts.

It's just something that got in the way so far in beirut, and the introduction of this cam hasn't helped imaging industry over here.

If reds go out for a thou in the us, they should go out for 350 here.

We're a tiny town man. It's unbearable.

Best of luck Lairhair, you know i mean it :) and it is a crazy image maker after all.

What curve are you planning to pick? I've messed with Rec709 haven't tried redspace ever come to think of it.

Are you going for an adobe workflow?

T
 
Waitasec. Isn't all this filmout and sell in india a lot of money? was the problem a lack of ad initially? i should think in this budget an ad would be hired?

T
 
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