crossing the line between scenes

I kind of enjoyed the line jumping during the church scene in 21 grams. I don't feel like it was necessary, but I still think it worked.
 
Even Stanley Kubrick's jumped the 180 a few times, and I consider him nearly a god. If you watch it and it works, it works, if you watch it and it doesn't, it just doesn't. Like some others have said, the rules ARE meant to be broken. They're more like statistics than rules (i.e. 95% of the time, staying "within the 180" keeps the audience from getting disoriented).
 
armisiano said:
Even Stanley Kubrick's jumped the 180 a few times, and I consider him nearly a god. If you watch it and it works, it works, if you watch it and it doesn't, it just doesn't. Like some others have said, the rules ARE meant to be broken. They're more like statistics than rules (i.e. 95% of the time, staying "within the 180" keeps the audience from getting disoriented).
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I would say that most of the time he was crossing the line he was doing it to be just that: disorienting.

Again, it's a matter of knowing why you're doing something.
 
If you want to see some serious line-breaking, pretty much anything by Lars Von Trier will knock you silly, especially Dancer in the Dark.
In his case though, it usually works for me and I'm not exactly sure why, maybe because it's used SO much that it starts to become expected and feel right for the scene... or maybe I just love Björk too much.:love4:
 
filthrich said:
You can break any rule you want as long as you have a good reason for it. Really, it's your film and you can do what you want.
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Interesting question from the OTS but I'd say doing whatever you want is risky if you have no idea what you're doing.

Doing something when you know what you're doing is all-together another story.

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I have never noticed new scenes having any set standards or guidelines. I just may start paying attention though.
 
Someone told me that in Lord of the Rings the screen direction of their journey is always the same the whole movie until they get to mt. doom. This would imply that the line wasn't crossed between every scene...but I haven't checked it.
 
HerzogisGod said:
I cant figure out exactly why that scene is confusing
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Maybe the line crossing is what is confusing you?

For me the geography is not established and one has no idea where in the room everyone is sitting. It is confusing how many people are in the room. It is confusing who is talking to who.

I suggest that it could be fixed with better editing but that would require that the coverage was there in the first place and that the lines are accurate.

To me this is a great example of "breaking the rule" and not getting away with it. I can see no reason why it would be done deliberately in this case.

Anyone who says "the rules are meant to be broken" care to comment and explain the scene.
 
yeah, that was definitely an example of bad cinematography. i got dizzy within the first 3 seconds.

it's a bit tricky when you are stuffed in a small room with 4 different people talking all over the place.

if you watch the masters like spielberg, lucas, fincher, nolan in that same situation... they will all do the same thing: lock the camera in one position with a wide angle lens and sit back while the actors move and talk within that one frame. there are situations where you have to let the actors make the scene, not the camera.
 
It helps if you can edit as well as shoot... that'll solve most line issues. Otherwise, once you set a line, play that line with all your shots. The only way to break the line but have it feel natural in the edit is to CUT to a neutral shot that has no relationship to your line. This can be a close-up of some object, preferably something dead on, nicely centered for example...or a reverse shot highlight another area of the scene, in general, something away from the action you're filming or a neutral object/subject.

You can break the line as often as you wish and it'll flow fine in the edit as long as you always cut to a neutral shot prior.
 
The best directors have been known to cross the line. Akira Kurosawa does it on purpose on some of his films. You could cover it with circular wipes or transitional wipes from left to right,or vice versa... so most people won't notice if the actor ends up on the other side of the screen. There mind will forgive what just happened because the wipe creates a fresh scene in the viewers head.
 
"Akira Kurosawa does it on purpose on some of his films."

How do you know its on purpose?

My experience of Japanese "film making" is that anything goes and a reason is not always necessary or supplied . I have shot a number of commercials for Japanese Directors and on two of them I did not even know what the product was let alone the reason for the action and performance.
 
Interesting that you said Japanese "film making"....What are you implying?

I could say the same thing about filmmaking anywhere, not just Japanese. Akira Kurosawa was a master filmmaker, not some random commercials director. That's a huge difference.

A lot of commercials in Japan are crazzzzy. They have all sorts of random stuff going on. But it works and the products sell. Their game shows are crazy random sometimes too. But it's entertaining.

Usually when I notice a line cross in a Kurosawa film I see why he might have done it. There is one shot in Ikiru and some of his other films that I still wonder why he crossed the line there, but I'm sure he had his reasons, or maybe sometimes the shot just "works better" on that side and if it's not going to confuse the audience too much then it's fine.

I'd say when one gets to the level of Akira Kurosawa you'd know what a line cross was when you're doing one... When Akira Kurosawa crosses the line, even if I don't understand why he made the cross, it still works because he doesn't confuse the hell out you like in the clip someone posted earlier. Filmmakers notice the cross, movie goers won't notice a thing, as long as it's not confusing. But that's the trick. If you're going to cross the line, know why you're doing it and how it's going to cut.
 
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I said "My experience of Japanese film making" because I have had some experience of "Japanese film making" as in working with Japanese Directors/crew on TVCs as well as something like 'Merry Christmas Mr Lawrence'

It was not a slight.

I have found that often they have no reason for what they are doing and just do it anyway. At other times I have found they can have very deep and complicated reason why they do something the way they do. I am fine with both approaches.

Many people say the rule is meant to be broken and the master director/cinematographers can do it. Anyone willing to post up a scene with line crossing that works for them ...and be prepared to explain it? (Maybe even explain the one I posted near the top of this thread)

I would point out also that often/ sometimes the Director has little to do with shot making and the cinematographer chooses "the angles".

I have frequently seen 1st Cam Asst advise about lines. (Mine does to me)

Then again , large shoots have Continuity Crew. It is considered part of their job.

And least we forget - Editors. Lack of coverage and bad blocking/shooting of a scene can make them look crap. Good coverage and they can be heros.
 
Yes and no, It may appear to cross the axis, but it is always shooting towards the wall.
 
In the comic frames, the geography (location of the characters in the space) is well established early on so the cuts are basically neutral.
 
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